Question about Carmelites

[AveMariaMaterDei]

Does anyone happen to know anything about the Sisters of Carmel in Colorado Springs?

Are they in union with Rome?

Has anyone ever visited them for discernment, etc.?

Thanks and God Bless!

[graciandelamadrededios]

They are not in communion with Rome nor recognized by the Generalate of the Discalced Carmelites.  They are wearing the Spanish-style Habit, with longer white toque and black veils.

[tinytherese]

No they're not in union with Rome and when I was in contact with them years ago they didn't even have permission of their bishop to be a community. So yea, look elsewhere.

[GraceUk]

Out of interest I looked at their website and nowhere does it say or even imply that they are not in communion with Rome. This is quite worrying as I'm sure such a fact would make this community a complete no no for most discerners. Unless I missed it.

[Antigonos]

It would rather surprise me if a community NOT in communion with Rome would advertise the fact.  Indeed, I would expect that they would attempt to imply the opposite, or ignore the topic entirely.

[AveMariaMaterDei]

4 hours ago, Antigonos said:

It would rather surprise me if a community NOT in communion with Rome would advertise the fact.  Indeed, I would expect that they would attempt to imply the opposite, or ignore the topic entirely.

I did kind of wonder if they were doing this last time they responded to another letter I sent, as I had asked them several questions, one being whether they are in union with Rome and they didn't exactly answer my question and most of the letter was about the Latin Mass, which I had asked if they had regularly. I wasn't sure whether they were kind-of trying to avoid the question about whether they are in union because they are not in union, or if it was more that they had forgotten to answer that question fully...

[clk]

I am ignorant about how this can happen.  Does this mean they once were and now they're not?  Do priests come there to say Mass?  They seem to have a full monastery.  Can someone enlighten me.

[truthfinder]

2 hours ago, clk said:

I am ignorant about how this can happen.  Does this mean they once were and now they're not?  Do priests come there to say Mass?  They seem to have a full monastery.  Can someone enlighten me.

From what I can tell on a wikipedia page and another website, it goes down as such (and please, anyone who is more informed, correct me): After Vat II, a group formed called Servants of the Holy Family, akin to SSPX at the time (1970s), they were attached to the traditional rite but still in fine standing with the church.  These Servants were the male religious order (who also have their own seminary) - how the Carmelites came to be, I'm not too sure - but it is this religious group which acts as chaplains for these Carmelites.  But through the Servants' connections, and some very questionable faculties and ordinations which are common amongst sede vacantist groups and the like, they ordain and give sacraments.  I won't link the Servant's website here, but on it they won't even name who their ordaining bishops are - so unlike the SSPX who made their own, or some others like CMRI, they don't have their own bishops.  It seems that until the early 2000s they might have stayed on the right side of the Holy See, but after then the local bishop has steadfastly stated they are not in communion. 

I hope that enlightens a bit - the way these sede and fringe groups operate gets incredibly complicated.

[graciandelamadrededios]

Carmelite Monastery of Nuns are founded by either: 1. The Mother Prioress petitions the General of the Order (if the founding monastery is under the jurisdiction of the Order)  for a new foundation, Father General forwards the petition to the Holy See; 2. The Bishops ((if the founding monastery is under the jurisdiction of the Local Ordinary) petitions the Holy See directly for a new foundation.

Any foundations that does not belong to either 1 or 2 are questionable since the Order and the Holy See ensures that the new foundation has enough personnel and competent officers to train postulants and novices, run the monastery, etc. 

 

[GraceUk]

I've never heard of this happening in the UK. But of course that doesn't mean this hasnt happened here. I knew that newly founded  orders needed to be approved before they could accept postulants and that this could take some time.

[clk]

Thank you, Truthfinder and Graciandelamadred,for taking the time to reply.  I appreciate the information.

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by clk

[graciandelamadrededios]

 

1990 CONSTITUTIONS

 

JURIDICAL STATUS OF THE MONASTERIES ERECTION AND SUPPRESSION OF THE SAME

 

133. The Order of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel constitutes in the Church a spiritual family which belongs equally the Carmelite Fathers and the Discalced Carmelite Nuns.  Between them there ought to exist a unity of spirit and of doctrine, but not necessarily a dependence of government and jurisdiction.

 

     As regards their juridical condition, our monasteries, preserving spiritual unity with the entire Order, have no other major superior above the Prioress, except the Holy See, nor they are associated with the Discalced Brothers in such wise that the Superior General should have any power over them whatsoever.  Consequently, they are entrusted to the vigilance of the diocesan Bishop according to the norm of law. (Cf. can. 615)

 

134. These monasteries, erected by a formal decree of the Apostolic See, are of Pontifical Right and depend immediately on the same in regard to internal governance and discipline (Cf. cans. 589, 593, and 609).

 

 

======================================================================
 

 

 

1991 CONSTITUTIONS
 

THE CANONICAL STATUS OF THE MONASTERIES AND THEIR ERECTION AND SUPRESSION

 

The canonical status of the monasteries

 

199. The Discalced Carmelite Nuns of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel and the Discalced Carmelite Friars together constitute a single religious family in the Church.

 

200. The Discalced Carmelite Nuns, who are governed by these Constitutions, profess an entirely contemplative life.  They observe papal enclosure in monasteries sui juris which are governed by and subject to a Prioress, who is a major superior, according to the norm of law.

         The Superior General of the Order is the head of this family.  To him pertains, in his service to the nuns, the task of promoting their unity in fidelity to the contemplative-ecclesial ideal begun by St. Teresa of Jesus, and of fostering union among all the monasteries and with the rest of the Order as well as with the Apostolic See, without detriment to the autonomy which universal law and these Constitutions grant to the monasteries.

201.  Since they are of pontifical right, every monastery depends on the Apostolic See in what pertains to internal government and discipline.  For the exercise of immediate responsibility over the monasteries, Apostolic See entrusts them to the regular superior of the Order, according to the Constitutions, or to the diocesan bishop, according to the norm of law.

          For that reason, as far as the canonical condition of the monasteries is concerned:

a)     Some remain, according to the age-old norm, under the jurisdiction of our Order, and have as their regular superior the Superior General or their respective provincial, who have over the monastery the jurisdiction determined by these Constitutions.

b)     Others, by the Apostolic See's special decision, are entrusted to the special vigilance of the diocesan bishop, according to the norm of law.

 

202.  The canonical condition of the individual monasteries, to which reference is made in the preceding number, must be determined in the act of foundation.  For a monastery entrusted to the special vigilance of the bishop according to the norm 615 to pass under the jurisdiction of our Order, the following are necessary:

a)     The deliberative vote of the monastery.

b)     The approval of the diocesan bishop.

c)      The Superior General's acceptance with the consent of the Definitory.

d)     The authorization of the Apostolic See.

          For a monastery placed under the authority of our Order to be entrusted to the special vigilance of the diocesan bishop, the following is required:            

a) The deliberative vote of the monastery.

b) The approval of the Superior General with the consent of the Definitory.

c) The diocesan bishop's acceptance.

d) The authorization of the Apostolic See.

 

203.  The juridical autonomy mentioned in the foregoing numbers, must be accompanied by autonomy of life.  Therefore a monastery must have everything it needs to lead an autonomous life, including enough resources and personnel for a faithful Teresian Carmelite observance and formation and government, so as to give assurances for the vitality of the monastery, its development, and its future needs, according to the norm of the present Constitutions.  This must be kept in mind especially when new foundations are being planned.