Canberra ACT - Archbishop refuses to allow breaking the seal

[chrysostom]

I do understand that the Sacrament of Confession has not always been private.

What I took issue with in your post about a general absolution was that it lacked confession of sins to a priest.

"there is no direct evidence that confession had to be specific or detailed or that it had to be made to a priest." - that is a quote from the Britannica Article. But Britannica is not Catholic, and does not take into account Sacred Tradition. Tradition, as a source of divine revelation, together with Magisterium, which authoritatively resolves questions on divine revelation, tell us that confession has to be made to a priest, and that this is not only intrinsic to the sacrament but also that it is established by Christ himself.

That's all for me here today too.

Edited March 29, 2019 by chrysostom

[cruciatacara]

All laws can be changed, even canon laws. They have been over the ages. There was a time in the Church when confessing to another member of the laity was accepted (Catholic Encyclopedia) but then this was clarified and/or changed depending on your point of view.

The seal of the confessional didn't always exist either, so that means it can be changed canonically. There just has to be a will to do it. I see no problem with most of the laity agreeing to the seal of the confessional for non criminal sins but not for crimes. If a person who committed a crime is truly penitent, then they should also be prepared to either have the priest turn them in, or to turn themselves in - otherwise it isn't true penitence, it is just trying to get rid of the feeling of guilt.

[Guest]

Until Pope Francis changed it women who had abortions couldn't confess it anonymously to a priest. They had to go through a public process to the Bishop. Someone correct me if im wrong on that.

I think it should be that way for pedophilia. Also probably rape and some others.  What is mind blowing before Francis changed it a woman couldn't confess her abortion. Yet pedophile priests, bishops, and cardinals could abuse children and confess it over and over again. Something doesn't add up there. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Guest

[fides' Jack]

10 hours ago, Josh said:

Until Pope Francis changed it women who had abortions couldn't confess it anonymously to a priest. They had to go through a public process to the Bishop. Someone correct me if im wrong on that.

I think it should be that way for pedophilia. Also probably rape and some others.  What is mind blowing before Francis changed it a woman couldn't confess her abortion. Yet pedophile priests, bishops, and cardinals could abuse children and confess it over and over again. Something doesn't add up there. 

Maybe it doesn't add up because abortion is not seen as being as heinous as it is?  Abortion is more evil than pedophilia.  Pure and simple.

[Gary david]

A question concerning these bible words.

Romans Chapter 13: " Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.

Whats happens when the higher authority wants you to do something.in opposition to Gods will. Like something that would cause harm to another or something that goes against His commandments? What do you think?

   God bless.....

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Gary david said:

A question concerning these bible words.

Romans Chapter 13: " Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.

Whats happens when the higher authority wants you to do something.in opposition to Gods will. Like something that would cause harm to another or something that goes against His commandments? What do you think?

   God bless.....

We are called to obey all legitimate authority over us in all things not sinful.  God would never call us to disobey His Will.

[cruciatacara]

4 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

Maybe it doesn't add up because abortion is not seen as being as heinous as it is?  Abortion is more evil than pedophilia.  Pure and simple.

No it isn't. A living, breathing, conscious child who faces terror and assaults upon their body and mind suffers much more -  simply because they are conscious of the suffering. Can you even begin to imagine the fear and shame a child feels when forced into sexual acts?  The attack isn't just upon the body but upon the mind and soul as well.

I don't think it is ever a good idea to compare two kinds of suffering as they must be judged on different criteria, but I can tell you that innocents who die are held in the arms of Jesus, but those who live after horrific acts of desecration against their bodies, will suffer the rest of their lives. Not only have their bodies suffered, but their minds and souls can be twisted too. That is why some of them end up committing suicide. 

Please don't make those kinds of comparisons.

[Gary david]

Hi Barbra. Your answer is what I thought but how does it work when a priest follows authority and because authority says he cannot say anything about a crime confessed and harm continues because of this where does that put the priest in the eyes of God do you think? You may or may not have an answer to this but you seem to know much more about these things than I.

  God bless.....

[Guest]

This is a dreadful time for us all, but especially for our priests.  The whole matter of the seal of 
Confession is a dilemma, a canon law and moral dilemma.  It is a dilemma that only theologians working on the issue and reporting to Rome can sort out.

To my mind, if a priest keeps the seal of Confession when a crime has been committed and the person who confessed commits the crime again, I am personally absolutely confident that in the eyes of God, Father is not at fault one bit, but it is only my opinion.  These are the type of questions that I bet our priests are agonising over.  If Rome insists on the seal of Confession, there can never be anything sinful in a priest obeying.  Secular and worldly people might see otherwise and call it criminal and a criminal act and a priest might have to pay the penalty.

That is neither supporting the seal of Confession nor challenging it as my personal point of view.  

21 minutes ago, Gary david said:

You may or may not have an answer to this but you seem to know much more about these things than I.

It is not that I know any more than any other, it is that I am now 73 years of age, disabled, and thus have done and do a lot of reading.  Also my sons are now adults and independant and I live alone.  I have heaps of time to read and I do enjoy research.  Also, I am mostly unafraid of my own thoughts and expressing them.

There are far more reliable and educated people on Phatmass.

[Gary david]

Well im sure theres always going to be someone smarter than the other. I only have my lifes experiences to have learned many things.from. I am a catholic, read the bible and compare the words of Jesus to life. I know I ask difficult questions and dont expect any tentative answers from you becuse I know only God has them, but I do value your opinion because it is given with respect and knowledge. Things like.that are not hidden. I will call that wisdom. And also I.feel that you help more people than you might think using the tools.God gave you and using them as you do. 

  Ok for now then. Goodnight and God bless.....

[Guest]

17 hours ago, chrysostom said:

I do understand that the Sacrament of Confession has not always been private.

What I took issue with in your post about a general absolution was that it lacked confession of sins to a priest.

We can go backwards and forwards on the question but I don't think I will change your opinion or you change mine.  We can, however, very happily agree to disagree, which I do.

Initially, the bishop, priest and all laity (i.e. "the whole community") were present at the confession of sins.  It was a quite public matter.

My two cents is that confession had to be made in the presence of a priest was because priests were leaders of the community and power resided with them.  It was not that it was necessary to specifically confess to a priest, rather it was because there was no real community without the priest when confession became an issue in The Church.  Initially it was the priest AND the community of baptised.........later (from monasticism in Ireland) it got narrowed down to the priest only.  Power was shifting from priest AND the faithful, to the priest only.  It is simply our history and an interpretation of it.

The question of whether it is absolutely necessary to confess to a priest and whether the seal of Confession must remain is a question for theologians reporting to Rome and that is going to take time.

Has The Church made radical changes in the past, yes She has.  The Church has an obligation to listen to the times: 

Quote

 

"He also said to the crowds, "When you see (a) cloud rising in the west you say immediately that it is going to rain - and so it does; and when you notice that the wind is blowing from the south you say that it is going to be hot - and so it is.

You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time?

Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? (Luke Chapter 12)

 

 

 

Nowadays, we have given power to the hierarchy and no longer make judgements for ourselves.  I know that is a protestant reformation stance, but it is true nonetheless i.e. power is indeed in the hands of hierarchy alone.  I am neither stating it is right or it is wrong.  Judge for yourself.  

_________________

Excerpt - there is a timeline on the site too:  "How, then, did the first Christians find God's forgiveness for sins committed after the rebirth of baptism? The New Testament indicates numerous ways in which the common sins of our frailty found forgiveness.

We have already been alerted to the first Christians' vivid awareness of their sharing in the victory of the `paschal mystery' through the Eucharist in which the Saviour himself invited them to drink 'my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins' (Mt 26:28).

They remembered Jesus had taught his disciples that they would find the Father's forgiveness in forgiving others (Mk 11:25; Mt 6:14). They recalled the parable of the tax collector whose humble prayer, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' was commended by the Lord: 'I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other' (Lk 18:13-14).

The Letter of James, after speaking of the anointing of the sick, continues: 'confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective' (5:16).

If their practical love was genuine, they were instructed, they would find forgiveness for their sins: 'whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner's soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins' (5:20). Compare the First Letter of Peter. 'Maintain constant love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins' (4:8)." http://www.catholicaustralia.com.au/living-the-faith/questions-catholics-ask

Edited March 30, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Gary david said:

Well im sure theres always going to be someone smarter than the other. I only have my lifes experiences to have learned many things.from. I am a catholic, read the bible and compare the words of Jesus to life. I know I ask difficult questions and dont expect any tentative answers from you becuse I know only God has them, but I do value your opinion because it is given with respect and knowledge. Things like.that are not hidden. I will call that wisdom. And also I.feel that you help more people than you might think using the tools.God gave you and using them as you do. 

  Ok for now then. Goodnight and God bless.....

You are very kind, Gary.  Thank you.  Divine Office: "Every day as long as each day lasts keep encouraging one another"

Every single one of us on Phatmass has more 'power' than we might think.  In the past half an hour we have had 30 guests or lurkers on Phatmass.  Someone told me years ago that sometimes our hierarchy does have a look at these Catholic discussion sites to see what the troops might be really thinking.  Not only that, but quite everyday people might have a read to try to understand who Catholics are and what they believe.  Catholics might drop in too as they struggle with their own questions and difficulties.

In my book, contributing to Catholic discussion sites can be a real and even powerful act of evangelisation.  We may never know the good we might have done until Heaven.

Do not discount your own worth, Gary, you have made some great posts and said things well worth hearing and taking on board.

I don't know how old you are, but at 73 years for me there is a great amount of 'water under the bridge' and many experiences too.  Heaps and heaps of reading as well.   Well is it said that at my age one is too old to change - truth is that one is never too old to change, it is just that it is more difficult and one refuses to change unless it is viewed as a really worthwhile change.

Also, just now on Phatmass contributing members are like hen's teeth!  It would be really great and increase our pool of experiences and knowledge if more members contributed.  Pray.

I do try to be respectful and to have some sureness of what I am stating............but I am not infallible and can often fail my ideals.............no jolly way am I infallible by a very long shot - I am a sinner and a learner too   I am here to learn too and very much still with L Plates on.  Phatmass and the Pham Phamily has taught me an awful lot in the years I have been a member.  I am no longer the person who signed up for membership.  I have changed and grown.

_____________

Gary: "I am a catholic, read the bible and compare the words of Jesus to life. I know I ask difficult questions"  I am laughing, Gary, because that sounds an awful like me as a teenager - especially about the "difficult questions".  You are on a good path in my book, Gary. .................

...............I have the great honour and rare distinction of having been called a heretic by a future Archbishop. ......another story.  

[Gary david]

You see! You never know what one might hear in another instant. Well, at the age of 65 I now now I still sound like a teenager! And you can absolutly be rest assured without any doubts whatsover, that I dont look like one.haaaaa. And thats the truth. And I know that I should know much more concerning church law and rules. I guess spent far more time trying to understand the rules of Jesus instead. Not a bad thing I feel but in regards to church teachings I do fall short. There are so many different laws and teachings that I feel I must be a laywer to understand them all.

  Alright barbara. I bid you goodnight and I ask God the Father to bless your soul and all that you do....

[Guest]

Now I really am laughing, @Gary david !!!    I really was thinking of you as a very young person, goes to show how deceptive the written word can be and just how much my/our concepts can fail and fall.  Just how very wrong I can be.

Edit:  I think that it is a compliment for you Gary, that I have been thinking of you as quite young.  

1 hour ago, Gary david said:

without any doubts whatsover, that I dont look like one.haaaaa

LOL - Yeah, I like to say that I feel like a teenager until I look in a mirror, then I know beyond doubt I sure am not.

1 hour ago, Gary david said:

There are so many different laws and teachings that I feel I must be a laywer to understand them all.

I agree with you!  This is one of the problems with The Church in my book, it is far too complex and top heavy education wise (for one only) for us very ordinary people to understand.  Even The Church has lawyers to interpret things for them in canon law.  That speaks to just how complex Church matters can be.

Gary, I feel that I have patronised you and perhaps been condescending -  and I very sincerely apologise.  I have always been self- opinionated and outspoken since my teens anyway.  My apologies!

1 hour ago, Gary david said:

I guess spent far more time trying to understand the rules of Jesus instead.

Well said indeed. 

1 hour ago, Gary david said:

Alright barbara. I bid you goodnight and I ask God the Father to bless your soul and all that you do....

Thank you for your beautiful closing blessing, Gary.  And may The Lord bless you and yours also.

An Old Irish blessing to you, Gary:

May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind always be at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
And rains fall soft upon your fields.
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

Edited March 30, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Gary david]

Good morning. Just to say, theres no need for apologies, you didnt make me feel patronized whatsoever, but I appreciate your offering. Yes your right about words being decieving especially when one takes to assumptions. But assuming is also a part of our lives and we do this often only to find out that we were wrong. Again! The best we can do is try and minimize assuming.  a small problem compared to many. And being opinonated and outspoken is a quality if it is done with respect because people wont listen otherwise. Thank you for your closing prayer as well. 

  Do you recall this old movie, "the miracle of marcalino?". I remember watching this when I was very young. I found it this morning and later will watch it. I began to watch it to make certain that this was the right one and to see that it worked and was.surprised to see just how old this movie was, like me!! I will give a link for it if you are interested to see it.

  Ok. I will talk to you later then. God bless you.......