Peace Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 On 3/22/2019 at 12:39 AM, BarbaraTherese said: Para 1 above: Undoubtedly many (including the pharisees) would have felt so challenged by Jesus and His Teaching, they would have thought it blasphemy. That does not make blasphemy factual, rather only that many thought that it was. Para 2 above: I dont think such a dogmatic statement can be made. The reason the apostles fled was likely that they were terrified for themselves once Jesus was arrested and put on trial. They might have doubted Him but no indication that it was a case of doubt and doubt only. It might have been fear or even terror and panic. I think it conceivable that the apostles concepts of the longed for Messiah was so consistently challenged by Jesus and His Teachings, His Actions that there might have been great confusion at His arrest etc. It is conceivable too that with the aforementioned, they were absolutely terrified for themselves and ran. Agree for the most part. On 3/22/2019 at 12:39 AM, BarbaraTherese said: That might have been your reason/process for Faith and indeed a great Grace of God that Faith was granted. It is not of necessity and by a very long shot every person's reason for Faith and for unflinching Faith. I think that there can be a 100% knowledge beyond the 'normal' reasons for belief and Faith that Jesus is God. Such knowledge is a great gift indeed and perhaps a quite rare one even - and " Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew Chapter 19) Again, spiritual experiences are of great variety indeed. Indeed, perhaps it is because Gary had Faith in Jesus that Gary is granted by God 100% certainty that Jesus is God. Such a huge gift of God is not all that unusual either I suspect. " Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew Chapter 19) Anything is possible but do not see any precedent for the "gift of 100% certainty" in Scripture or Tradition. If you have something in particular in mind though please let me know. Perhaps I missed it. I think I have some qualms about such a concept on a basic level though. Such a gift would seem to make man more like an angel who knows everything he will ever need to know from his moment of creation, rather than us humans who struggle and live a life of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary david Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Ok. Your position is now clear. I do agree that we must follow the law but not agree in our hearts, otherwise there would be no assemblance of order. God bless.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruciatacara Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Peace said: My position is that when it comes to secular authority we have to follow the law because we live under a system of laws, but we don't have to "believe in our heart of hearts" that secular authorities are right in their judgments. Fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Peace said: Agree for the most part. Anything is possible but do not see any precedent for the "gift of 100% certainty" in Scripture or Tradition. If you have something in particular in mind though please let me know. Perhaps I missed it. I think I have some qualms about such a concept on a basic level though. Such a gift would seem to make man more like an angel who knows everything he will ever need to know from his moment of creation, rather than us humans who struggle and live a life of faith. Certainly in the Old Testament there are those who literally spoke with God. In the New Testament Peter, James and John witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus. The apostles saw and spoke with Jesus after His death and then resurrection. Many of our saints have had visions of Jesus and even spoke with Him. All things are indeed possible to God. The conviction of the identity of Jesus would not rob a person of their humanity. Such a person would still need to struggle along the path of Faith, trust and confidence in Jesus, truly man and Truly God. Unlike the angels such a person would remain quite humanly susceptible to temptation and sin. The weakness and fallibility of our human nature would remain fully intact along with all other human beings. St Peter is a really good example. He blurts out to Jesus "You are the Christ, the Son of The Living God". Not all that long after that event, Peter denies that he knew Jesus three times. In other words, Peter had a conviction of the identity of Jesus but it did not spare him his humanity one iota. 30 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE I have quoted from the above link in a previous post. This will be a very short quote from it: St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."182....................... .......................314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God "face to face",184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest 185 for which he created heaven and earth. God's Will - His Direct and His Permissive Will https://catholicexchange.com/gods-will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said: Certainly in the Old Testament there are those who literally spoke with God. In the New Testament Peter, James and John witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus. The apostles saw and spoke with Jesus after His death and then resurrection. Many of our saints have had visions of Jesus and even spoke with Him. All things are indeed possible to God. Sure. I agree with you that is possible that God could grant someone 100% certainty that Jesus is God. 2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said: The conviction of the identity of Jesus would not rob a person of their humanity. Such a person would still need to struggle along the path of Faith, trust and confidence in Jesus, truly man and Truly God. Unlike the angels such a person would remain quite humanly susceptible to temptation and sin. The weakness and fallibility of our human nature would remain fully intact along with all other human beings. St Peter is a really good example. He blurts out to Jesus "You are the Christ, the Son of The Living God". Not all that long after that event, Peter denies that he knew Jesus three times. In other words, Peter had a conviction of the identity of Jesus but it did not spare him his humanity one iota. I agree with this for the most part. I think you have made the case that it is possible that God would grant someone a gift like that. I don't really see God granting it except in very rare circumstances or for people with very special purposes (Mary, the apostles, etc.) I think it's pretty safe to assume that a person has not been granted a gift like that unless he tells us he has (I think even @Gary david above pretty much wrote that he hadn't gotten it). As for the material you quoted - what was the reason you quoted that again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Knowledge is one of the seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit at Confirmation: CCC http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm By natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of his works. But there is another order of knowledge, which man cannot possibly arrive at by his own powers: the order of divine Revelation.1 Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. This he does by revealing the mystery, his plan of loving goodness, formed from all eternity in Christ, for the benefit of all men. God has fully revealed this plan by sending us his beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. "For good reason, St. Thomas Aquinas taught that the gift of knowledge brings to perfection the supernatural virtue of faith, but it is also linked to the perfection of the cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, and temperance. " http://catholicstraightanswers.com/gift-knowledge/ GIFT OF KNOWLEDGE: One of the seven infused gifts. By the illuminating action of the Holy Spirit it perfects the virtue of faith. It gives a person the ability to judge everything from a supernatural viewpoint. The object of this gift is the whole spectrum of created things insofar as they lead one to God. Through infused knowledge the faithful can see the providential purpose of whatever enters their lives, and they are able to put creatures to the right use according to God's will for themselves and for others. Sometimes called "the science of the saints," it enables those who have the gift to discern easily and effectively between the impulses of temptation and the inspirations of grace. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33734 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary david Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 All I know is that there is no end to the learning. Each time an answer is given, another question arrives. Almost like a ladder to heaven it seems. One rung at a time. A nice writing you have made. Where I stand with knowledge, im uncertain. Just going to keep trying and praying. God bless you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, Gary david said: All I know is that there is no end to the learning. Each time an answer is given, another question arrives. Almost like a ladder to heaven it seems. One rung at a time. A nice writing you have made. Where I stand with knowledge, im uncertain. Just going to keep trying and praying. God bless you.... I agree with you, Gary. I think I no sooner am arriving than I am leaving once more - there never is any real arrival. Fulfillment is only for Heaven. Knowledge is the Gift of The Holy Spirit at Confirmation and as we journey "trying and praying", The Holy Spirit perfects the Gifts of Baptism and Confirmation, fulfilled only in Heaven. I am a traveller, a wandering, stumbling along pilgrim on this earth. No idea where I am on the scale of things nor does it matter one iota. 35 minutes ago, Gary david said: All I know is that there is no end to the learning. God's Blessings and His Peace on you also, Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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