Vatican's Secret Rules for Children of Priests

[Ice_nine]

Could this be the next big scandal? What does it say about celibacy requirements for priests?

I just feel a lot of revulsion at the dark secrets our clerics are hiding under the guise of spiritual authority. I thought the proper response to sin is repentance, public if necessary. All these cover-ups! Let everything be brought to light.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/18/world/europe/priests-children-vatican-rules-celibacy.html

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

Let everything be brought to light

Amen

[KnightofChrist]

The next scandal will just be the same scandal again. Sexual abuse of mostly young men and minors. 

The sexual abuse summit was a joke. Nothing, nothing was done or investigated of how McCarrick rose so high in the church when for so long he was known as an abuser of young men and minors.

Francis should resign. 

[Ice_nine]

7 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

The next scandal will just be the same scandal again. Sexual abuse of mostly young men and minors. 

The sexual abuse summit was a joke. Nothing, nothing was done or investigated of how McCarrick rose so high in the church when for so long he was known as an abuser of young men and minors.

Francis should resign. 

Did you also hear about the sexual abuse of nuns though? I don't know how rampant or widespread it was. I understand it's throwing a wrench in the "homo priests are ruining the church" narrative, but it's still really messed up.

Aren't we supposed to respect our bishops and cardinals and pope? This is becoming very hard to do.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

This is becoming very hard to do

I am very unhappy about what Pope Francis said at the conclusion of the conference on sexual abuse too.....and that makes me really sad and now mistrustful as well.  PF was highly critical of sexual abuse in the home.......and it came across as mitigating the sexual abuse crisis in The Church.  His statement about families really shocked me particularly in the context.

There is no comparison between sexual abuse in the home and that in our Church while both are very serious and shocking.  Sexual abuse in The Church is the worst of the worst of the worst!!!  Families, by and large, do not claim high morality for themselves and proclaim it to the whole world, for the world to adopt.  Families do not claim and proclaim that they are the Voice of Christ for the whole world.

If a child is abused in the home, then he or she should feel quite safe at very least in our Catholic Church.

 

5 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

Aren't we supposed to respect our bishops and cardinals and pope? This is becoming very hard to do.

We must respect the office - trust in the holder of the office must be earned.

I did read about the nun sexually abused by a priest in India, I think it was.  Nothing can surprise me now about our hierarchy and that is very sad to me, very sad indeed.  I have always been wary of authority due to things that happened in my childhood relating to authority (not my parents and not sexual in nature) - nowadays I am doubly wary of authority.  My 20 years in the Public Mental Health system underscored and increased my wariness, even mistrust, of authority.

"Put no trust in princes, in mere mortals powerless to save. When they breathe their last, they return to the earth; that day all their planning comes to nothing. " Psalms Ch146 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PJU.HTM

I can rest assured that God is always in the driver's seat - and these terrible matters had to come into the light of day.  As I read somewhere in comments about the recent Conference on the Abuse Crisis..........."the crisis is not over"..........not even close to over.

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

Sitting outside having a smoke (the Conference on the Abuse Crisis and comments by Pope Francis has thrown me - a reason, but no excuse for the cigs) and reflecting on the problems I have had down the years with authority figures.  It reminded me of my two tours of duty in monastic life.  I think my novice mistresses were probably testing my humility and obedience and discovered just how full of pride and disobedient I could be and quite deliberately on my part........talk about being told to plant cabbages upside down -

Quote

"There are many stories about St. Francis; among our favorites is a legend from the friary at Monte Casale. Here every year the brethren plant a cabbage in the garden and let it flower to remind them of the time the saint bade two young brothers plant some cabbage plants upside down. One did, but the other knew better and planted his right side up. St. Francis dismissed the second brother, for, he said, it had been a test of obedience, not of planting cabbages." https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/activities/view.cfm?id=249

 

When I think about it, authority figures have most often in my life been a problem for me.  I had PF on a pedestal.............but no longer.  I dont think he should resign however. I tend to think probably Pope Benedict knew the abuse crisis was going to get far worse and felt he did not have the stamina to guide The Church through it.  I am now wondering if PF has the attitudes to guide us through it, deal with it as it should be dealt.

Incidentally, here is the actual document and transcript of what PF said at the conclusion of the Conference on the Abuse Crisis:

  Sala Regia http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2019/february/documents/papa-francesco_20190224_incontro-protezioneminori-chiusura.html

I haven't read the document yet.  I really am still negotiating my own state of complete shock at what PF stated especially re families.  Our hierarchy in the main just do not get it.  I am hoping my initial conclusions are incorrect and will be amended by the document.  I hope.  The crisis is a tremendously serious matter and no occasion to point out that priestly paedophilia is simply situated within a bigger social problem with worse problems.

We are the Body of Christ on earth for goodness sake!

[KnightofChrist]

12 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

Did you also hear about the sexual abuse of nuns though? I don't know how rampant or widespread it was. I understand it's throwing a wrench in the "homo priests are ruining the church" narrative, but it's still really messed up.

Aren't we supposed to respect our bishops and cardinals and pope? This is becoming very hard to do.

Yeah that angers me greatly also. All the abuse angers me, just anger I hope. The issues I have mostly is what type of abuse is being ignored by those claiming to be doing something about it. Francis and those close to them have spoken out and said many things about child abuse and the abuse of nuns. But when people ask Pope Francis about priests abusing 16 year olds boys we get garbage like the famous "who am I to judge." I can't recall the name of the priest off hand or where it happened. But the famous quote was in response to a question by a reporter asking about the case of a priest and a 16 year old. Francis as a person lost all respect from me that day. As the man that holds the office of pontiff he has all my respect. Still, he should resign. Far too many of his friends, and those close to him have been found to have abused or protected abusers. Even Francis protected and promoted a priest that took nude selfies of himself and abused young men. He needs to go for the sake of the Church. He has failed too many times on a personal level. 

[cruciatacara]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

Yeah that angers me greatly also. All the abuse angers me, just anger I hope. The issues I have mostly is what type of abuse is being ignored by those claiming to be doing something about it. Francis and those close to them have spoken out and said many things about child abuse and the abuse of nuns. But when people ask Pope Francis about priests abusing 16 year olds boys we get garbage like the famous "who am I to judge." I can't recall the name of the priest off hand or where it happened. But the famous quote was in response to a question by a reporter asking about the case of a priest and a 16 year old. Francis as a person lost all respect from me that day. As the man that holds the office of pontiff he has all my respect. Still, he should resign. Far too many of his friends, and those close to him have been found to have abused or protected abusers. Even Francis protected and promoted a priest that took nude selfies of himself and abused young men. He needs to go for the sake of the Church. He has failed too many times on a personal level. 

The problem doesn't rest with Pope Francis alone, it is a systemic problem in the hierarchy of the Church. If Pope Francis leaves and is replaced by another pope who continues to avoid full disclosure because of those around him, then what difference would it make? Cover-ups have been going on for so long now (long before Francis was elected pope)  that those who are highest up in the Church don't know how to be transparent because they are afraid either of repercussions to the Church or of being found out themselves. Cardinal Pell, here in Australia, was number 3 at the Vatican. Now he is a registered sex offender and is in jail awaiting sentencing.

I am sure there are many more in the hierarchy who are afraid of the truth coming out because it might affect them! The shortage of priests is only going to get worse as more of them are charged with crimes. Pedophilia isn't the only crime that has happened, as witness priests having children, sometimes through acts of rape. I would say a major overhaul of all of those in charge needs to happen.

The thing that would really save the Catholic Church from losing all credibility would be total honesty about anything remotely scandalous or criminal - full disclosure and punishment of perpetrators and reparations for victims (not just to child victims, but also to abused nuns, children of priests etc). It would be hard initially but it would eventually help people to trust again. As it is now, people start suspecting even truly good priests. The suspicion is causing many people to lose faith in the Church, if not also in God. The house needs cleaning.

How can the Church claim to represent Christ if lies continue? Christ is the Incarnation of Truth. It is a very sad and disappointing time for Catholics. Stronger and honest leadership is needed, I grant you, but not just in the head of the Church, but in all of those who will continue to be in power when the pope changes, which is bound to happen one day, one way or another. But will that be enough?

[Guest]

Very well put, thank you.

[islander]

Thank you for sincere and realistic responses.  

Here in Ireland we are facing an additional scandal. By nuns. After the discoveries at Tuam, that there were nearly 800 deaths of babies and children at a Mother and Baby home, but no burial certs, there were massive deep investigations. Mass war grave experts were called in ( horrific that that should be in peacetime Ireland) and groundpenetrating radar discovered nine separate burial sites on the campus. Even under a road and a playground. And yes a septic tank where it was clear the babies, naked, had been thrown in atop others.

We have a govt commission at work that has been extended by another year as we had  ten such homes here and the same pattern is emerging. One in Galway was handed over to the council on condition that they could do what they wanted to the building but must NOT touch the garden and yes, same there. Death certs and no burials

This week Sean Ross Abbey is in the news. There has been a tip off by a local person so ground radar has been in and excavation has started. I visited there way back before the scandals hit in connection with church work and the lies.

Systemic abuse of babies and proof coming in of serious neglect, of babies born out of wedlock being left to die. Dying babies left in the care of small orphans in the homes. ch 

  I no longer see the Lord Jesus in the Church, in any church.  In this and in the massive abuse we hear of almost daily. 

For me and my life, that is .... I live alone on a very small island, and now am island and house bound, living a very isolated and simple life in an old tradition.   No practical connection with the Church.   My immune system does not   allow public   places...A few folk I know have a deep and abiding faith in Jesus, as I do.  For me, that is what matters. How I live Jesus. 

NB I got .... not quite terminated but nearly  on Cath Answers for asking simply why do people stay? No chance to explain that here many do not.   Stay with Jesus yes but with the organisation as it is being revealed now?

Babies even, tiny lives, and the total with be in the thousands.. oh and they used them fro vaccine trials also. We have that investigation to come.. Not "just" priests etc but Nuns.   

Apologies if this offends; it sincerely is not intended. I am very old and thought I was beyond being shocked. I am not. In deep distress here. Questioning things I never thought to question, but, thankfully, staying close to Jesus.  

Edited February 27, 2019 by islander
mistake

[cruciatacara]

@islander - I too have problems with the Church's sins but also try to hang tight to Jesus, so you are not alone in your feelings. The Church condemns abortions but then we hear about crimes like these against babies and children - great evils that make  Catholics seem like hypocrites. These things are enough to shake the faith of anyone of heart or conscience. Those who love the Church greatly are bound to suffer greatly at her disgrace.

So I would not make excuses for any of these discoveries, but I can hope that these evils are in the past, and not continuing in any way today. I suppose only time will tell about that. The institutions that were in existence all those years ago and that helped to facilitate these crimes are with us no longer so the vulnerable babies and children that were abused and killed back then are, we hope, safe from repeat performances by representatives of the Church today. It might help if some of the nuns who are still alive today could apologize for the crimes and sins of the past, but from what I have seen so far, no one wants to step up and accept responsibility for their actions. There are very few nuns left alive from those days, and those who are refuse to speak to anyone about what happened, so I doubt that any of the children who survived those places will ever get true closure. 

The unwed mother's homes and the foundling homes are all gone, but priests still  have a lot of power, although not as much as in the past, so some abuses might still be happening - but we hope not. We hope that all atrocities are all safely in the past.

But in the past or not, the answer is not to sweep these things under the carpet, but to come out in complete honesty and transparency, admitting the failure of the Church to protect the vulnerable in the past, and to offer whatever reparations and punishment are possible at this time and to put into place, protections against anyone in a position of authority or power being allowed to abuse others, especially children. Trust, once gone, takes a long time to rebuild. 

Pope Emeritus Benedict wrote that the future of the Church will probably be in many smaller communities, and it seems that he might be right. Many people have turned away because of the revelations, but many others who have always found comfort in the Church are hoping to see her survive this disgrace and, after cleansing, become a force for good again. There ARE good priests and nuns, but that doesn't negate the need for the Church to admit her failings in the past to weed out those who were not, or to be vigilant in ensuring that the past will not be repeated.

Hanging on to Jesus may be all that some Catholics can manage right now. 

[islander]

Thanks for this especially the last line.  Every time anything to do with the babies, I am in sheer hell for days.  

If anyone needs info re Tuam etc, there is abundant on youtube and the internet. A reputable historian called   Catherine Corless was the person who realised the discrepancy  and forced it to the light

Some years ago I was in a church and chatted with a new curate. Fresh out of seminary .... we talked of a very new abuse scandal and he puffed himself up and declared". We have not done too badly when  you compare us with the Scouts", When I got my breath back I educated him.. that WE are supposed to be the teachers, the shining examples of caring and protecting and morality. As someone here has said it is far worse when we do such wrong..  

I hear you re being in the past; but this is what and the people who have shaped the Church, created rules and customs. How can we trust ? Here in Ireland more than in the US as the whole country was shaped by the Church; look up Paul Cardinal Cullen etc.  Rome decided to use post famine Ireland as a source of priests and nuns to take the Church to the whole world.  

And there is no shame, no penitence in the Church... it is that that offends. We are taught to repent, make amends. Here the orders still have not paid the compensation, 

I arrived in 2002, just as Goldenbridge hit the news and we all thought well that is it, that is all. I was raised Church of England but absorbed easily into the Church here.  And then it all went on and on and on. 

When people assert" The Church IS Jesus" ? And a few other core beliefs I cannot hold any more.  It was so rife and total here. Irish life is suffused in and created by the Church.

And the damage it has all caused to society now as there cannot be a family who have not been affected.   Now we have gay marriage and abortion. 

Sorry; I really am sorry. Too choked to weep even. and deeply thankful  that my illness, age , and isolation mean I am away from it physically. The revelations re Sean Ross Abbey... 

All the years in Ireland I have gravitated to the ancient monastic ruins and found deep peace and prayer there ... especially the ancient Celtic beehive hut colonies..When poverty and service were real and humble. 

[cruciatacara]

@islander  I do think that some within the Church have expressed deep regret and sorrow at the crimes, but yes, there are still those who try to make excuses and minimise the evil done, perhaps using denial as a defense mechanism. I think those who have loved the Church very deeply have  felt deeply hurt by what appears to be a betrayal of all that was supposed to be good and holy. 'Of those to whom much is given,much is expected' - and the Church is supposed to be the shining example of God's love through Jesus.  Admitting such evil has existed (and might even continue to exist) in the Church is difficult for those who don't want to believe what is so obvious now. And the habit of covering up the evil has become so ingrained that it will take great courage for the Church to go forward now with complete transparency. But it will be necessary if she wants to not only survive, but to regain the trust and confidence of those she has betrayed and hurt so deeply.

In Ireland, it has been so hard for you. We have had our tough times in Australia too; now we are dealing with the shock of Cardinal Pell being found guilty of heinous crimes - crimes he committed after solemn Mass on a Sunday, in the sacristy! Was nothing sacred to him? Laity are instructed in the sacredness of church buildings and the Mass and respect for the priesthood, and then are faced with crimes against our children by that very priesthood within the church, after Mass. Shock affects different people different ways so some will deny reality, while others will feel they need to flee from it by leaving the Church. But changes don't come from denying or from fleeing. The Church hierarchy needs time and transparency, along with action, to help renew faith in the Church again. Many of the laity will need time to heal and to reflect on what is essential to hang onto in their religion. For you and so many others, hanging on to Jesus may be all that can be done at this point in time. Trust won't come again easily. But you haven't run away completely or you wouldn't be posting on a Catholic site. It would be perfectly understandable if you were grieving for the way you believed things truly were and not the way they have turned out to be? 

'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely', a saying that is relevant in the case of so much abuse. As we can see from the crimes of the nuns, abuse isn't only about sex, but about power. Priests and nuns could do what they did because they had power and authority over others. The Catholic Church is not unique in her abuse of those who are vulnerable, there have been many in positions of power who have abused others. The difference for Catholics is that we have expected (and rightly so) the Church to be a shining example of what is good and holy, not what is corrupt and evil. So when those in power within the Church have caused such suffering, the shock and horror is greater than when done by those who are not walking the moral high ground. This is a good thing - the shock and horror - it means that no one sees it as normal or acceptable. If the Pope and the Church hierarchy handle things well, there is no reason why trust can't be re-established again, but it is going to be a very sensitive time for many while they look for signs of true repentance and humility and accountability within the Church hierarchy for all the cover-ups and an end to the dominating power that priests and nuns had over others in the past. Respect yes, but earned respect as examples of Jesus.

For as Jesus advised in Matthew 20:25-27...

"But Jesus called them to him, and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them. It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant."

[Guest]

10 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

Hanging on to Jesus may be all that some Catholics can manage right now

Amen.  

[islander]

Forgive me please; I have an illness that wipes me out days and weeks at a time and am very old. I omitted that the Irish state is meeting the challenge of the babies at the Homes. Unlike the Magdalene Laundries, the mothers left the Homes and left their babies ... many then got married so there were siblings and extended families. Some still alive and seeking lost little ones. The Commission came up with 5 possible responses to the 9 sites where babies had been.... well dumped. One was to leave them where they were, but under roads and playgrounds? The 5th response was the one that is to happen.  Exhume all the remains, DNA and aim to trace families who seek this, then rebury all the little ones together. This will cost millions as it is expert and delicate work ( and heartrending) As the babies were just dropped in, the remains are impacted.  Bon Secours, the order responsible for Tuam, have offered to pay part of the costs. They are multi millionaires owning the largest private hospitals in Ireland and few of them left. Oh they got paid 5 sterling by the local council for every "burial".  Thankful that Ireland has the compassion the church did not have.  also they have to try to trace the babies sold to the US.

Knowing Irish history post famine; it seems the Church wanted to ?? destroy? a class of people? As they did in the US and Canada? Between the Maggies,  the Homes and the Industrial Schools? I visited Letterfrack many times; the boys cemetery deep in woods where no birds sing. Nearly 100 graves, all boys sent there for ...crimes. What crimes can 6 year olds commit to be imprisoned and worked to death? I used to walk the rows of graves, praying and saying the names.  Glad the locals have dressed the place in toys and brightness. 

It was all so carefully... planned. The abuse, the cover ups, and was happening at parish level. One lady I knew here tells of how her granny  who used to clean the Church  would tell her not to go to confession when a certain priest was on ..It was just part of life here.  

How if at all do we , whatever denomination or church group we are with, recover and give the life of Jesus to folk? 

On 2/27/2019 at 2:32 PM, cruciatacara said:

@islander  I do think that some within the Church have expressed deep regret and sorrow at the crimes, but yes, there are still those who try to make excuses and minimise the evil done, perhaps using denial as a defense mechanism. I think those who have loved the Church very deeply have  felt deeply hurt by what appears to be a betrayal of all that was supposed to be good and holy. 'Of those to whom much is given,much is expected' - and the Church is supposed to be the shining example of God's love through Jesus.  Admitting such evil has existed (and might even continue to exist) in the Church is difficult for those who don't want to believe what is so obvious now. And the habit of covering up the evil has become so ingrained that it will take great courage for the Church to go forward now with complete transparency. But it will be necessary if she wants to not only survive, but to regain the trust and confidence of those she has betrayed and hurt so deeply.

In Ireland, it has been so hard for you.   

NB I am not irish by the way. I arrived here on the eve of the abuse scandals breaking with a special involvement here. I lived in a rural parish and my nearest neighbour has a sister in the Mercies. Yet among the shock waves of Goldenbridge, I was told other more local causes for concern... activities of a local priest at choir practice...  Irish people are very... accepting of abuse.  . The sheer power the Church had here; they ran all the schools, all the hospitals, all the penal institutions. An old saying goes, " The Sisters of Charity had no Mercy and the Sisters of Mercy had no Charity" 

They kept the population under the thumb. 

All that has gone. When I was still at Mass, so few young folk there. So few priests also. a great depression in the Orders. ( I had a commission for a book on the Catholic Church in Ireland in the early years of the 21st century so doors and hearts opened. And no, that book was never written.) 

There was real progress in uniting the Churches in rural Ireland just prior to the scandals. That has gone too.   

Very tired... excuse me and bless and thank you for letting me speak. Because of the timing of my arrival in Ireland I saw it all crumble.  One Poor Clare order nourished me and I saw the knock on effect on them too. They were down to 3 Sisters and only saved by the coming of a group of Filipino Sisters .