New vocation video -- Baltimore Carmel

[GraceUk]

I did think Carmel was safe from these changes. But it isn't. I don't know where it will be in 50 or 100 years. But abandoning of tradition isn't the right. way to go.  And I was taught that the holy habit meant a lot more than just appearance. I'm sorry if I have offended anybody but I still think it's a huge mistake. When I first came on this forum most people were mostly in favour of the older orders keeping true to their traditions but things seem to have changed. Very sad.

[Sister Leticia]

The Carmelites "safe from change"? They were founded in the 12th century, and by the time Teresa of Avila came along in 400 years later there had already been various reforms and reforms of reforms. And more changes were made in the centuries after her, by both nuns and friars: discerned, prayed-over changes seen as essential, and which deepened and strengthened the Carmelite charism and way of life, though they caused pain and controversy to some within the order - and no doubt people on the outside disapproved, felt they were making mistakes and wondered where it would all end.  

Blessed (soon to be St) John Henry Newman once wrote that "to live is to change, and to be perfect is to have changed often". Life is about change. The only exception to that, of course, is God, who is changeless.

[Nunsuch]

1 hour ago, GraceUk said:

I did think Carmel was safe from these changes. But it isn't. I don't know where it will be in 50 or 100 years. But abandoning of tradition isn't the right. way to go.  And I was taught that the holy habit meant a lot more than just appearance. I'm sorry if I have offended anybody but I still think it's a huge mistake. When I first came on this forum most people were mostly in favour of the older orders keeping true to their traditions but things seem to have changed. Very sad.

You really don't seem to "get it." I don't know what you mean by "safe," but I can assure you that these nuns are not only deeply prayerful but also highly educated--many of them with postgraduate degrees in theology. Do you think that they made decisions about dress (a highly superficial factor, as many have already pointed out) in a casual or impromptu way?  

This is the oldest Carmel in the US. You might want to look at some of the spiritual and theological sources they have posted on their site. I would particularly recommend the writings of Constance FitzGerald, a remarkable, prayerful, and deeply intelligent writer. She has also been a member of this Carmel for about 60 years. I have the privilege of two friends in this Carmel, and have had the joy of visiting on a few occasions. It is a house of prayer.

[Guest]

On 2/19/2019 at 10:03 AM, Nunsuch said:

You really don't seem to "get it." I don't know what you mean by "safe," but I can assure you that these nuns are not only deeply prayerful but also highly educated--many of them with postgraduate degrees in theology. Do you think that they made decisions about dress (a highly superficial factor, as many have already pointed out) in a casual or impromptu way?  

This is the oldest Carmel in the US. You might want to look at some of the spiritual and theological sources they have posted on their site. I would particularly recommend the writings of Constance FitzGerald, a remarkable, prayerful, and deeply intelligent writer. She has also been a member of this Carmel for about 60 years. I have the privilege of two friends in this Carmel, and have had the joy of visiting on a few occasions. It is a house of prayer.

I also know Carmelite nuns who are deeply prayerful and totally Carmelite in spirit - and in secular clothing.  They are also highly educated.  I personally think it is up to the religious to decide re apparel, not my decision at all.  However, on reading the words of St Teresa of Avila, I think a person can be forgiven for putting emphasis on the Carmelite habit: " But His Majesty well knows that I can count only upon His Mercy, and, as I cannot help having been what I have, there is nothing for me to do but approach God and trust in the merits of His Son, and of the Virgin, His Mother, whose habit both you and I unworthily wear." (Interior Castle).

I think we need to remember that St Teresa of Avila lived and wrote, reformed her Order, in a Catholic cultural time when it was demanded by The Church that nuns be enclosed and in religious habit, no exceptions.  Nuns at that time, in the main, probably did not have second thoughts about it.   Also, to take words out of an overall context can be misleading and I am confident that Carmelite nuns, along with all religious, are probably in the main skilled in grasping the writings and spirit of St Teresa or their respective founders in overall context including the affect of the culture in which their founders lived.

I have no idea, but possibly the religious habit in the times of St Teresa was viewed as a sign of devotion and dedication to Our Blessed Mother.  Today we recognise that it is not the sign that is of paramount importance, rather that to which the sign points and in this instance, it is devotion and dedication to Our Lady and all the Carmelites I know certainly have that deep and profound devotion and dedication.

My final point is that many of us have been conditioned into thinking and even sighting religious as always without fail in a religious habit and we have come to put an emphasis and meaning on the religious habit that is misplaced.  I know I was so conditioned having been raised and educated pre Vatican II - I needed to re-adjust my thinking.........re-think the habit and come to realise that it is a secondary matter, not prime - I needed to search for what is prime and that in itself was to my benefit, my good.

If one is discerning religious life and desires to wear a habit, then discern with a religious order that wears a habit without criticizing those who don't, which criticism and judgement, after all, is a failure in charity and mutual respect, perhaps even in understanding and vision, whether one is in discernment or not.

Edited February 20, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I would particularly recommend the writings of Constance FitzGerald, a remarkable, prayerful, and deeply intelligent writer. She has also been a member of this Carmel for about 60 years.

Re the above, it was not me that posted it, it was Nunsuch and very well said!  I like the writings of Constance FitzGerald OCD very much.

Edited February 20, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

"Impasse and the Dark Night" essay available free online by Sister Constance FitzGerald OCD https://www.iccdinstitute.org/home/impasse-and-the-dark-night/  was a real eye opener and support to me in my journey, although she often lost me once she got into women specifically in the final chapter of the essay but I am sure it might speak loudly to others - I am just not there......yet - and perhaps never.

Many of  Sister's (and other Baltimore Carmel nun's) writings are availble free online on the Baltimore Carmel website: https://www.baltimorecarmel.org/meet-our-community/our-writings/

[Pax_et bonum]

On 2/18/2019 at 6:18 AM, GraceUk said:

I was especially surprised that most of them seem to have their hair professionally styled.

You do realize that they knew that they were making a video, right? Who wouldn't want to make themselves look nice for that? Can you imagine your reaction if they were wearing their frumpiest clothes and their hair was unkempt? 

I don't like the way they are dressed either and think that the robes look awful, but goodness me, you act as if they are out to get you personally. I think someone else has commented that there are also some unattractive habits, and that is very true. Many communities that wear habits have some of their hair showing underneath their veils, and that hair needs to be kept nice, too. I doubt that even the communities that have veils that completely cover their hair would just have awful looking hair underneath. Even the poorest Franciscan stays clean.

[GraceUk]

I wasn't going to reply to this topic again but here goes. When I saw that video I was horrified.  Imagine if Pope Francis appeared in jeans and a sweatshirt people would be shocked because it's not what they expect. And that's not what I expected to see in a Carmelite convent. Thats why I was so critical. I showed the video to a friend and she wasn't keen either.  I think appearance is important. And I dont think I've ever seen a scruffy looking or untidy nun modern or more  traditional. But that's the decision they've made. I still think it's wrong.

[Guest]

I have spoken with Catholics and non Catholics who find it far easier to talk to a religious sister/nun if they are in secular clothing rather than a religious habit.  That does not mean, for me, that all religious should be in secular clothing.  I love the religious habit but embrace equally those religious who choose not to wear it and my presuming is that they have sound reasons.  I have spoken too with Catholics who prefer to relate with religious in a habit, that does not mean for me that all religious should wear the habit.

"But the LORD said to Samuel: "Do not judge from his appearance or from his lofty stature, because I have rejected him. Not as man sees does God see, because man sees the appearance but the LORD looks into the heart."  (1 Samuel Chapter 16 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P7A.HTM )

Letting go of expectations is about detachment i.e. detaching from the finite and attaching to The Infinite.   On earth, The Church is the Voice of Christ for me and Baltimore Carmel is in union with Rome.   St Paul tells us not to judge by appearances since we are all one in Christ :

"You are looking at outward appearances. If anyone is confident that he belongs to Christ, he should remind himself that we belong to Christ just as much as he does." (2 Corinthians Chapter 10).

 

[nikita92]

 "I know some Carmelite sisters are concerned about the cost of buying aparticular type of cloth for their habit"

Lots of fabric stores have sales on fabric all the time! JoAnn Fabrics stores here in Washington State (where we have St Joseph's Carmelite Monastery www.seattlecarmel.org) has a very large fabric inventory and constantly have 50% or more off sales! And it seems, that religious monasteries are usually blessed with *lay friends* who are more than happy to help with all sorts of *donations*! If they are in need of fabric, I can't see that being a hardship for them to get!

By the way...St Joe's Nuns are clothed in what can't be mistaken.. as Carmelite nuns!

Where as a (mature) religious who is simply dressed in a skirt, blouse, sweater (with some sort of cross pendant/pin) and with or without some sort of head covering, might (like some mennonite women wear) most likely be mistaken for a lay woman.

Personally, I can't see The little flower St. Therese of Lisieux dressed in a plain skirt and blouse calling herself a Carmelite nun!

Just my perspective...

 

[beatitude]

Whether or not we think these sisters "look like" nuns is neither here nor there. The fact remains that they ARE nuns, not by virtue of their clothes, but by virtue of their vows.  And vowed nuns who have been in that monastery for years - decades, even - have probably had chance to learn a whole lot more about what makes a Carmelite than people on the Internet who have not lived out so much as one week in a Carmelite cloister. Or even one day. Or one half-hour. Whatever we might think of those sisters' clothes, they have made real sacrifices to be where they are, and to be completely honest, I'd take the prayer of a Carmelite any day of the week over the opinions of people who have never made that sacrifice themselves.

If we're going to talk about tradition, then having some basic respect for our priests and religious is a traditional Catholic value. How is suggesting that they don't look real on the basis of their appearance compatible with that? I look at some of these comments and wonder if the authors would want to walk into the Carmel and say these things to the sisters' faces. Nunsuch and Barbara tried to draw this discussion onto something more substantial - these nuns' writings, especially Sr Constance's - and no one who criticises the sisters for their dress had a word to say about the theological work of a nun who has been sixty years in Carmel and is steeped in prayer. How is it 'traditional' to ignore that and look only at her clothes? It isn't.

[Nunsuch]

I am heartbroken that, in posting this video from women I admire and, in some cases, know quite well, the response has been one of criticism and controversy. The reason there are hundreds of different religious congregations--not to mention various expressions of certain charisms such as that of Carmel, Dominic, Francis, Benedict, etc.--is that people find their paths to God in different ways. As the Gospel of John says, "In Yahweh's mansion there are many rooms." This Carmel is one of them. 

A dear friend of mine died a week ago. It comforted both him and me to know that these nuns were praying for him--and now for his soul--in his final days. Their lives and prayers are a blessing to the Church and a witness to God.

As for being "horrified" by them, why not be "horrified" by injustice, by poverty, by hunger, by war, by hatred, by....  Certainly not by clothing and other externals.

[GraceUk]

I'm only one person so it doesn't matter what I think.  And most folk onnthe thread dont agree with me anyway. And a lot of the saints have caused controversy. Mother Teresa of Calcutta and Padre Pio to name only two. Better controversy than indifference like who cares what they do. Im sure those nuns are very holy women but they must know that its quite a contoversial thing they have done to abandon the habit completely for secular dress. 

[Bonkira]

I think they are too busy being nuns to consider the opinions and hang-ups of the world outside their cloister and their spiritual authority. Too busy being actual Carmelites than considering what other people think about their appearance.

[deusluxmea]

Nunsuch, I thank you for posting this video of this lovely community. I wanted to visit them when I was in Baltimore but couldn’t so this video was s real treat!