Vatican: Argentine bishop at Holy See under investigation

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I did not mean to state that he was criticising Jesus and apologies if it came over that way.   

  We are all human including Pope Francis who, it seems, has made some not good decisions himself.  Nothing, to my mind, to get upset about - we are all human and we are all prone to not good decisions

.  The Holy Father is not infallible in all his decisions, only in Faith and Morals when speaking from The Chair of Peter.

a) I meant that he was not even criticising him indirectly by criticising the Church qua his mystical body. 

b) The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Outside her, we will find everything except salvation. We should all pray for the Church and continue in the Church because, as Pope John Paul said, In order to make this "encounter" with Christ possible, God willed his Church. Indeed, the Church "wishes to serve this single end: that each person may be able to find Christ, in order that Christ may walk with each person the path of life"

c) Abuse is bad, cover-up is bad. The response from the Hierarchy is sorely inadequate, to put it nicely. 

d) No man is perfect but some are worse than the others. I'm not advocating self-righteousness, pride and judgementalism; but considered in themselves, not all immoral acts are of the same gravity. eg. Murder is more grave than gossip.

e) It is true that the Pope is not always infallible, particularly when it comes to practical decisions. Precisely because of this, we should pray for the Pope.

tl;dr) The Church is holy. Her members are not.

[tinytherese]

7 hours ago, Josh said:

Allow married Priest's so you aren't forced to accept all these homosexuals joining Seminaries. Nothing but love for gay people but they aren't called to be priests. And to the good celibate priest's God Bless. I would honestly fight if I were you to allow men in seminaries who have the option of marrying. This will broaden the men to select from and break up all of these homosexual rings in seminaries. 

Or the Church can keep doing the same thing and this can keep happening over and over worldwide and people can find a new church where bishops are allowed to marry (like in the Bible) and the institution isn't known for raping and molesting kids and trying to cover it up by all means necessary.

As has been brought up multiple times on the phorum over the years, including months ago, other Christian denominations that permit married pastors have high rates of sexual abuse, so celibacy is not the problem. 

What many people don't understand about sexual abuse is that it does not happen because of lust, but because of the power that comes from abusing people. Ask @HisChildForever. She's studied psychology, including forensic psychology.

[Guest]

Its around 90 percent male on male. With most being teenager's. It's without question a homosexual problem. Like I said nothing but love for gay people. But they aren't called to be priests and be in seminaries with a bunch of other gays. Just like it wouldn't be good for me to be in a dorm full of attractive prostitutes.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jack4 said:

a) I meant that he was not even criticising him indirectly by criticising the Church qua his mystical body.

What I was implying is that Jesus made some questionable decisions - at least in our human terms, so not at all surprising that we all, including the Pope, can make questionable decisions too.   The Holy Father really needs our constant prayers as you have pointed out - I would not want his job for anything at all.

b) The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Outside her, we will find everything except salvation. We should all pray for the Church and continue in the Church because, as Pope John Paul said, In order to make this "encounter" with Christ possible, God willed his Church. Indeed, the Church "wishes to serve this single end: that each person may be able to find Christ, in order that Christ may walk with each person the path of life"

Agree - beautifully expressed by St Pope John Paul II.

c) Abuse is bad, cover-up is bad. The response from the Hierarchy is sorely inadequate, to put it nicely. 

Agree and I have either pointed this out earlier in this thread or in another related to the abuse crisis.

 

Quote

d) No man is perfect but some are worse than the others. I'm not advocating self-righteousness, pride and judgementalism; but considered in themselves, not all immoral acts are of the same gravity. eg. Murder is more grave than gossip.

I agree that some failures and sins are worse than others.  It is of great importance that we can rely on the sound judgement of our Popes, but there is no real guarantee that at times their judgement might fail.  I don't think that that means that their judgement is not sound.  It means their judgement is fallible.

For too long clericalism has meant for us out here in the pews that we have our priests, religious and hierarchy on pedestals.  I know I still struggle with it, raised and educated in Catholicism by Catholic parents and nuns pre Vatican II.  They are fallible weak human creatures along with the rest of us, admittedly with all The Graces necessary for their vocations.............as do we.

e) It is true that the Pope is not always infallible, particularly when it comes to practical decisions. Precisely because of this, we should pray for the Pope.

I totally agree!  I could not agree more!

tl;dr) The Church is holy. Her members are not.

We are all sinners yet holiness remains attainable due to God's Gratuitous Grace and His Loving Mercy - a humbling, amazing and a stunning matter; His Call and desire is that we all attain holiness and we have the means in Him.   I think that is why we have The Church founded by Jesus i.e. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church through which Jesus continues to walk intimately with us all as unique individuals.

We are called to intimate relationship with Jesus.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

 

 

Pope Francis urges homosexual priests and nuns to be celibate, or leave

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-03/pope-francis-tells-homosexuals-to-leave-church/10575980

The issue probably is whether those males or females with homosexual tendencies can be "humanly and  emotionally" mature sufficiently so as to embrace celibacy with mature commitment. 

Quote

 

"The Church teaches that homosexual tendencies are not sinful in themselves, but homosexual acts are.

Francis said there was "no room for this" in the lives of priests and nuns, adding that the church had to be "demanding" in choosing candidates for what is known as the consecrated life.

"For this reason, the church urges that persons with this rooted tendency not be accepted into [priestly] ministry or consecrated life," he said.

He urged homosexuals who are already priests or nuns to be celibate and responsible to avoid creating scandal.

"It is better that they leave the priesthood or the consecrated life rather than live a double life," Pope Francis.

 

_______________________________

 

SHEEP WITHOUT A SHEPHERD

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/147105-new-york-times-sheep-without-a-shepherd/

For ordinary Catholics, the failures of their leaders have created a two-decade test of faith.

By Ross Douthat - Opinion Columnist - 17th November 2018

 

 

Excerpt: "But as an institution, the Roman Catholic Church seemed to weather the storm better than might have been expected. The Catholic belief that the sacraments are more important than the sins of the men responsible for offering them was tested — and seemingly endured. "

Quote

 

"Here is a striking fact about the Roman Catholic Church in the United States. The sex abuse crisis in the early 2000s, the horrid revelations of predation that began in Boston in 2001, did not have an obvious long-term effect on the practice of the faith.

Yes, American Catholicism has lost millions of its baptized flock over the last 50 years. But that decline was steepest in the 1960s and 1970s; by the turn of the millennium, some trends (attendance at Mass, for instance) had stabilized, and the number of Catholics marrying in the Church and baptizing their children had settled into a slower decline.

After the 2001 scandals Gallup showed a temporary plunge in reported attendance at Mass — but then a swift rebound. Other data showed no clear effect on attendance at all. 

Neither ordinations nor adult conversions dramatically declined.

There were local collapses and individual crises of faith, and the moral authority of the bishops was dramatically weakened. But as an institution, the Roman Catholic Church seemed to weather the storm better than might have been expected. The Catholic belief that the sacraments are more important than the sins of the men responsible for offering them was tested — and seemingly endured. "

 

 

[Jack4]

4 hours ago, tinytherese said:

the power that comes from abusing people

Can you explain that, please - how abuse gives "power"? I'm not disagreeing with you, I only want to understand.

4 hours ago, Josh said:

Its around 90 percent male on male. With most being teenager's. It's without question a homosexual problem. Like I said nothing but love for gay people. But they aren't called to be priests and be in seminaries with a bunch of other gays. Just like it wouldn't be good for me to be in a dorm full of attractive prostitutes.

There is a Roman Curia Instruction saying that "the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture". http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

There is a Roman Curia Instruction saying that "the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture". http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

I will always admit when I'm wrong. So according to this Seminarians could be gay as long as it's not deep seated?  

[Jack4]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

I will always admit when I'm wrong. So according to this Seminarians could be gay as long as it's not deep seated?  

The document gives the answer:

Quote

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. 

 

______

FYI I don't know how well this Instruction (deep-seated homosexuals not admitted to the priesthood) is implemented.

 

____

I will quote one more sentence from the Instruction: "One must in no way overlook the negative consequences [sic] that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies."

[Guest]

If you're gay you're gay. You can't pray it away. Most people who are homosexual know it from a young age. I knew I liked girls in the first grade. I remember the first girl I had a crush on.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Guest

[Jack4]

@Josh

"Iknew I liked girls in the first grade"

O dear! I didn't "like" girls in fist grade! I started to "like" them only from puberty. I do not count your experience to be universal - I have good reason not to. The distinction made about "deep seated" might be related to this. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

O dear! I didn't "like" girls in fist grade!

Laughing............seems you really did not like girls in first grade............(first/fist = typo freudian slip?) LOL -  I am only joking Jack.

I would like to know the definition of "deep seated" too (in relation to homosexual tendencies).  How does The Church define "deep seated" i.e. when does a homosexual tendency become deep seated?  

Even if a person is defined as not having deep seated homosexual tendencies, is it still an impediment to Holy Orders?  If a homosexual person can be admitted to Orders and/or Consecrated Life, is there a risk that the tendency could become deep seated (whatever that means) later in life?

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

@Josh

"Iknew I liked girls in the first grade"

O dear! I didn't "like" girls in fist grade! I started to "like" them only from puberty. I do not count your experience to be universal - I have good reason not to. The distinction made about "deep seated" might be related to this. 

Puberty can be as late as 14 for guys. So you didn't know you liked girls until then? I think it's not the case for most. I didn't lust after the girl in 1st grade but I liked her. I asked her to be my "girlfriend" and she said yes. This didn't happen with a guy. I didn't ask "Bob" to be my boyfriend. I don't think this was random chance. I think its becuase I like girls. Someone who is a gay male usually knows from a young age they like guys. 

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Laughing............seems you really did not like girls in first grade............(first/fist = typo freudian slip?) LOL -  I am only joking Jack.

Typo, LOL 

Quote

 

I would like to know the definition of "deep seated" too (in relation to homosexual tendencies).  How does The Church define "deep seated" i.e. when does a homosexual tendency become deep seated?  

Even if a person is defined as not having deep seated homosexual tendencies, is it still an impediment to Holy Orders?  If a homosexual person can be admitted to Orders and/or Consecrated Life, is there a risk that the tendency could become deep seated (whatever that means) later in life?

 

The document says this in contrast to "deep-seated":

Quote

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. 

The Instruction does not go any further than this. Discretion is ultimately called for. 

49 minutes ago, Josh said:

Puberty can be as late as 14 for guys. So you didn't know you liked girls until then?

No one in the whole school (or even in other schools, to the best of my knowledge) liked or proposed to anyone in a romantic way. The way you phrased your question seems strange  - I did not "know" that I (already, albeit unconsciously) liked women; I started to like with a liking with which I have liked before, if you know what I mean. This started around when my puberty did.

 

Quote

I think it's not the case for most. I didn't lust after the girl in 1st grade but I liked her. I asked her to be my "girlfriend" and she said yes. This didn't happen with a guy. I didn't ask "Bob" to be my boyfriend. I don't think this was random chance. I think its becuase I like girls. Someone who is a gay male usually knows from a young age they like guys. 

Cute as your story may be, it was due to imitation of what you saw in entertainment media, not because of sexual orientation. 

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

 

Cute as your story may be, it was due to imitation of what you saw in entertainment media, not because of sexual orientation. 

My story is not intended to be cute. I liked this girl. I still remember her name. I remember specific details. This was not because of entertainment media. It's becuase I had an inclination to like girls. You saying otherwise is irrelevant. At around 12 or 13 that inclination turned into me wanting to have sex with them or activities that led to that. I stayed a virgin well past that age. Anyhow we will agree to disagree. I knew from a very young age I liked girls. Gay people I've got to know tell me they had the same experience except the inclination was towards the same sex. Just curious do you think homosexuals develope the inclination because of abuse, neglect ect? Do you believe it can be prayed away or removed with treatment ect?

[Jack4]

I did not say that your story was intended to be cute, only that I found it cute.

My experiences are very different from yours. I'd wager that no two people in my school (upto 18 years of age) have had sex with each other. 

Sexuality is a very complex topic. I do not know how homosexuals become homosexuals. Nor do I know whether the sexual orientation/inclination can be removed/changed by a particular treatment/method. 

However, since God gives grace to avoid all sin, and hence all temptations can be overcome, all commandments obeyed; I believe - as a Catholic - that it is possible for a homosexual person (or any person for that matter) to live without sin of any kind by cooperating with God's grace, as taught by Pope John Paul.