Vatican: Argentine bishop at Holy See under investigation

[Guest]

"The Vatican has confirmed that an Argentine bishop, who resigned suddenly in 2017 for stated health reasons and then landed a top administrative job at the Holy See, is under preliminary investigation after priests accused him of sexual abuse and other misconduct."

https://www.apnews.com/cbb9f617777c4be9843ce0f1dc56c42a

[Guest]

Your point is?  

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Your point is?  

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

Untrue

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

"Evil members of a Church do not necessarily indicate an evil Church. One must be cautious; because this line of reasoning commits an error in logic called the fallacy of composition. We would not say, "the elephant consists of tiny parts, therefore the elephant is tiny"; and thus, we should not say that the Church is sinister because she has sinister members. The parts do not necessarily define the whole; and in the case of the Catholic Church, the parts justify the whole." https://strangenotions.com/is-the-catholic-church-a-force-for-good/

[KnightofChrist]

This is not the 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd time someone close to or promoted  by Pope Francis has been found to committed sexual abuse or covered it up.

[Guest]

..........

6 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

This is not the 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd time someone close to or promoted  by Pope Francis has been found to committed sexual abuse or covered it up.

 

...........and your point is?

[Guest]

10 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

This is not the 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd time someone close to or promoted  by Pope Francis has been found to committed sexual abuse or covered it up.

"Evil members of a Church do not necessarily indicate an evil Church. One must be cautious; because this line of reasoning commits an error in logic called the fallacy of composition. We would not say, "the elephant consists of tiny parts, therefore the elephant is tiny"; and thus, we should not say that the Church is sinister because she has sinister members. The parts do not necessarily define the whole; and in the case of the Catholic Church, the parts justify the whole." 

https://strangenotions.com/is-the-catholic-church-a-force-for-good/

[Jack4]

10 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

"Evil members of a Church do not necessarily indicate an evil Church. One must be cautious; because this line of reasoning commits an error in logic called the fallacy of composition. We would not say, "the elephant consists of tiny parts, therefore the elephant is tiny"; and thus, we should not say that the Church is sinister because she has sinister members. The parts do not necessarily define the whole; and in the case of the Catholic Church, the parts justify the whole." 

https://strangenotions.com/is-the-catholic-church-a-force-for-good/

As I understand, @KnightofChrist is criticizing the person of Pope Francis, not denying the holiness of the Church. 

The point you are making is very true -however, that was not what he was getting at.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jack4 said:

As I understand, @KnightofChrist is criticizing the person of Pope Francis, not denying the holiness of the Church. 

The point you are making is very true -however, that was not what he was getting at.

Could Judas be a criticism of Jesus?  Could the fact that His apostles abandoned Jesus at His darkest hour be a criticism of Jesus?  Could the fact that Peter denied Him three times be a criticism of Jesus?

After all, Jesus selected His apostles, including Judas and Peter.

[Guest]

We're talking about an organization and people who continually sexually assault and rape minors and children then cover it up and go through great lengths to prevent justice being served. 

Yes the Spirtual Church is Jesus's Bride and is perfect in that sense. We're not talking about that. We're talking about the organization and people who rape and molest youth and try to get away with it while promoting the people who do it to high positions of authority. People are sick of it. I am sick of it. I'm sick of hearing about it. I'm ******* piss** off my brother and his wife are having doubts about raising their baby son in the faith because of this. 

How can you expect anyone to take anything you teach seriously when you can't even get this right? How can you expect anyone to trust you when you cant even be trusted to do the right thing when it comes to youth and children being raped and sexually  abused? It's ******* crazy.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

This is how it works for most people. The Catholic Church can say 24/7 "There is no Salvation outside of it" but if it can't be trusted to do the right thing with sexually assaulted children then people will find a Church that can. Threats of belong to my church or go to hell are meaningless and empty words when you protect pedophiles for this long of a period of time.

Allow married Priest's so you aren't forced to accept all these homosexuals joining Seminaries. Nothing but love for gay people but they aren't called to be priests. And to the good celibate priest's God Bless. I would honestly fight if I were you to allow men in seminaries who have the option of marrying. This will broaden the men to select from and break up all of these homosexual rings in seminaries. 

Or the Church can keep doing the same thing and this can keep happening over and over worldwide and people can find a new church where bishops are allowed to marry (like in the Bible) and the institution isn't known for raping and molesting kids and trying to cover it up by all means necessary.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

We're talking about an organization and people who continually sexually assault and rape minors and children then cover it up and go through great lengths to prevent justice being served. 

Yes the Spirtual Church is Jesus's Bride and is perfect in that sense. We're not talking about that. We're talking about the organization and people who rape and molest youth and try to get away with it while promoting the people who do it to high positions of authority. People are sick of it. I am sick of it. I'm sick of hearing about it. I'm ******* piss** off my brother and his wife are having doubts about raising their baby son in the faith because of this. 

How can you expect anyone to take anything you teach seriously when you can't even get this right? How can you expect anyone to trust you when you cant even be trusted to do the right thing when it comes to youth and children being raped and sexually  abused? It's ******* crazy.

 You are not alone, Josh, in feeling revolted by these abuses and coverups.........and for me, the slowness with which The Church is moving.  The lack of transparency.  It seems to be mainly all talk and not much real practical action at all.  Also, I don't think that our hierarchy really grasp what has been done to the abused and that there can be no real closure for them nor real compensation for what has been done to their lives -  and for the rest of their lives they must suffer because of it.  I have never been abused by a priest other than one who made a pass at me and another who wanted intimate details in Confession after I had been raped at 15*** - and as far as the ritual of The Sacrament was concerned it was weird and disturbing.  Those wounds still live with me always - and now at 75 years of age.

(*** I never realised until my twenties when a good priest explained things to me that the guilt of rape was not mine to bear.  It was not even explained to me when I applied to enter a monastic order and was accepted.....as a penitent.  I had thought nuns and religious always had to be virgins)

But I do know that there are good priests and bishops, faithful and holy, men who must move within the slow grinding of The Church due to their vow of obedience which they hold in esteem and pray to be faithful to it, as we must. Given time, much time and probably never in my lifetime the horrors we all have been faced with will be past tense and The Church will have moved on.  But I don't think that the victims ever really can.  That must be a guilt we all bear to some measure or other.  We are the Mystical Body of Christ on earth and share in Her Joys and in Her Sufferings, in the failings of Her members.  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

The whole crisis, abuses and coverups, is going to cost The Church dearly, including our credibility - but with God's Grace, I am prepared to stay for the long term though I really do doubt there will be any real advances in my lifetime.  At 73 years of age, I don't think I have much time ahead of me, short of a bit of a miracle of Divine Providence.  I look upon death with Hope not as an ending but in Hope as a new and glorious beginning.

Mine is an investment in Hope for the future.

1 hour ago, Josh said:

We're talking about an organization and people who continually sexually assault and rape minors and children then cover it up and go through great lengths to prevent justice being served. 

Yes the Spirtual Church is Jesus's Bride and is perfect in that sense. We're not talking about that. We're talking about the organization and people who rape and molest youth and try to get away with it while promoting the people who do it to high positions of authority. People are sick of it. I am sick of it. I'm sick of hearing about it. I'm ******* piss** off my brother and his wife are having doubts about raising their baby son in the faith because of this. 

How can you expect anyone to take anything you teach seriously when you can't even get this right? How can you expect anyone to trust you when you cant even be trusted to do the right thing when it comes to youth and children being raped and sexually  abused? It's ******* crazy.

Quote

Yes the Spirtual Church is Jesus's Bride and is perfect in that sense

And that probably summarises my own investment i.e. not in the sinfulness of Her membership of which I am one, but in Her very real holiness which shines in many ways including in Her Sacramental Life, Her saints and other holy factors too.

The Church now has almost endless problems with which She must deal and my belief is that She will, but She will grind slow in God's Time not in my time.  The Church has always been slow to move.  In an age where most everything is instant, probably most all want instant results we can see.

I do think too that Pope Benedict's prophecy (when still Cardinal Ratzinger) has probably hit the nail on the head :  The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning.  She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members..Read MORE..

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/spiritual-life/the-church-will-become-small.html

 

I found the following video a reinforcement for Hope - it obviously seems to be from a good bishop and leader in the USCCB Arlington Diocese :

 

 

 

___________________________

The quote from Cardinal Ratzinger's book:  

Acknowledgement

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. "The church will become small." from Faith and the Future (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2009).

Edited January 7, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Jack4]

9 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Could Judas be a criticism of Jesus?  Could the fact that His apostles abandoned Jesus at His darkest hour be a criticism of Jesus?  Could the fact that Peter denied Him three times be a criticism of Jesus?

After all, Jesus selected His apostles, including Judas and Peter.

@KnightofChrist is not criticising Jesus. 

5 hours ago, Josh said:

We're talking about an organization and people who continually sexually assault and rape minors and children then cover it up and go through great lengths to prevent justice being served. 

Yes the Spirtual Church is Jesus's Bride and is perfect in that sense. We're not talking about that. We're talking about the organization and people who rape and molest youth and try to get away with it while promoting the people who do it to high positions of authority. People are sick of it. I am sick of it.

I agree. 

5 hours ago, Josh said:

This is how it works for most people. The Catholic Church can say 24/7 "There is no Salvation outside of it" but if it can't be trusted to do the right thing with sexually assaulted children then people will find a Church that can. Threats of belong to my church or go to hell are meaningless and empty words when you protect pedophiles for this long of a period of time.

I agree. 

I do not think, however, that permitting ordinations of married men to the priesthood will result in a boom in vocations.

Quote

49. We are not easily led to believe that the abolition of ecclesiastical celibacy would considerably increase the number of priestly vocations: the contemporary experience of those Churches and ecclesial communities which allow their ministers to marry seems to prove the contrary. http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_24061967_sacerdotalis.html

 

The encyclical is about celibacy. Pope St Paul VI explains and defends priestly celibacy.

I'm not denying the abhorrence of abuse, the necessity of solution and the apparent ineptitude of Bishops. What I do doubt is whether the specific solution you propose will accomplish what you aim for.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

@KnightofChrist is not criticising Jesus. 

 

I did not mean to state that he was criticising Jesus and apologies if it came over that way.   

  We are all human including Pope Francis who, it seems, has made some not good decisions himself.  Nothing, to my mind, to get upset about - we are all human and we are all prone to not good decisions

.  The Holy Father is not infallible in all his decisions, only in Faith and Morals when speaking from The Chair of Peter.