More Than 300 Predator Priests In Pennsylvania Protected By Catholic Church

[Guest]

No props left  Thanks @Josh - good quote.

Edited August 29, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Kateri89 said:

I think that we have an entirely different outlook on this because we seem to be coming from two different mindsets.  I see the Church not as any old institution but rather as the body of Christ which should be held to the highest ideals and certainly higher than that of Heinz.  Heinz makes ketchup; it’s purpose is to produce condiments, not to shepherd souls along their spiritual journey.  If Heinz was covering up the fact that they stole their recipe from another company, that would be somewhat more equivalent of a comparison.  The Church is supposed to live according to supernatural virtue and this runs totally contrary to that.  This isn’t simply a criminal failure but a moral failure coming from a Church which is supposed to be a bastion of moral goodness.  That’s the point as I see it.  

Come on now. All of a sudden I do not view the Church as the body of Christ? 

By “highest ideals, “ if you are referring to the moral law, everyone is held to the same standard, be it the CEO of Heinz, you, me, or Pope Francis. There are no higher or lower moral standards for different people.

If by “highest ideals,” you mean to suggest that the Catholic Church should just open up all of her vaults and willingly disclose all of her private documents to any Tom, Dick and Harry who wants it, I do not see how that is a “highest ideal” at all. There is no supernatural virtue that entails disclosing all of one’s private information to the public. Certainly abusing children, and protecting those who abuse children, run contrary to our faith, but there is nothing inconsistent with our faith about exercising discretion when it comes to the public disclosure of internal communications.

You seem to think that not allowing the public unfettered access to any and all internal church documents that have anything to do with sexual abuse accusations or investigations is tantamount to protecting abusers, but that is simply not true. In the first place we do not even know how many of those cases are substantiated, unless you blindly take at face value the AG’s opinion that they are all guilty.

I mean think about it - what always happens when a grand jury comes back with an indictment? A defendant goes to trial to determine actual guilt or innocence. Whoever heard of a grand jury investigating people who it is impossible to have a trial to determine guilt or innocence because they are dead, or cannot be prosecuted because the alleged acts occurred decades ago? This is not a legitimate use of the criminal court system, but a political stunt.

Now, if the AG wants to take all 300 of these cases, and give them a true trial or hearing like proceeding in order to determine, as best as possible, actual guilt or innocence, giving the people whom the accusations are made against a fair opportunity to defend themselves against the accusations made against them, in other words, actually attempting to discern truth in a fair and objective manner, I would be supportive of that. But the AG has no interest in doing that at all. He is using the grand jury as a political opportunity to levy accusations, without giving the accused his day  in court to defend himself against those accusations.

Perhaps some of the accused would have stepped up and said, no I am not guilty of this, what the report said about me is not true, etc., and I am suing you for slander, but as most of them are dead that is difficult for them to do. You have some accusations in there dating back 70 years.

1 hour ago, Kateri89 said:

On a related digression with regards to McCarrick, if BXVI actually did impose sanctions on him, those sanctions should’ve been shouted from the rooftops so that McCarrick wouldn’t have been able to get away with defying orders.  Everyone would’ve known his nasty history and perhaps he wouldn’t have been able to get away with as much as he has.  So I do believe it was incumbent upon Church leaders, once they had credible allegations against a priest to report it to the civil authorities, place appropriate sanctions on him until the investigation was complete, and notify the parish in order that they would be protected.  I don’t believe in ruining reputations but I also don’t believe in covering for possible predators simply to save face.

Well since 2002 or so it has been the policy to report all accusations to the police, whether deemed credible or not, from what I understand. And I totally agree with that. We’ll always have instances where people do not do what they are required to do, and where people fall through the cracks, because we are sinful.

But that being said, and not a reason to cease being diligen, I do not think there is any organization that is safer for children than the Catholic Church today, as far as the policies and procedures that we have put in place to prevent abuse. 

[Guest]

Sounding like Bill Donohue lol Smh

Edited August 29, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Peace said:

But that being said, and not a reason to cease being diligen, I do not think there is any organization that is safer for children than the Catholic Church today, as far as the policies and procedures that we have put in place to prevent abuse. 

I do sincerely wish I could hold confidently to the above.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I do sincerely wish I could hold confidently to the above.

It's like the twilight zone here...

[Ash Wednesday]

On the one hand, I think that the secular press and world will no doubt run a lot of smear campaigns and some innocent people will be caught in the crossfire.  That's nothing new. The Church is an easy target because it is the most visible church on earth.

On the other hand, if the Church is the Body of Christ, then they are going to be held to a higher standard, so really, we as the collective church shouldn't be giving them anything to go with in our conduct and living the Gospel. Paraphrasing here but I believe many holy people and saints have said "those who are given much, much will be expected of them." 

I kind of suspect that whatever truth or testimony comes out, what people are going to fall in different factions and will believe or not believe and respond depending on what their agenda is. I already see it now with how people are fighting over the Vigano paper. 

I actually shudder and feel very depressed about how ugly this is going to get. On a microcosmic level, I'll be surprised if there are any practicing Catholics left in my family besides me when this is through and we eventually turn a corner. I am glad that Wednesday is adoration day at the church down the road where I work. It's desperately needed. I'll include the phatmassers in my prayers.

[Ash Wednesday]

I suppose the reason why I'd like to think or at least HOPE I wouldn't lose my faith is because I separate the actual human part of the Church from my core religious beliefs, including the fact that the Church belongs to Christ and everyone eventually has to answer to Him. The Lord sees and knows so much ugliness that we probably can't even begin to comprehend. 

My uncle was a priest and I think my father saw a lot of ugly politics behind the scenes and he's always been pretty turned off and cynical about faith as a result. Not completely, he goes to church and I don't know his soul. But I get the sense that for all the ugly things we hear about in dysfunctional families, there's a lot that goes on within the clergy on all levels that we don't always hear about that is all kinds of horrific when we do.

 

"Deep Thoughts With Ash Wednesday" 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Ash Wednesday said:

. Paraphrasing here but I believe many holy people and saints have said "those who are given much, much will be expected of them." 

Comes from Luke Chapter 12 - Jesus: "Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more."

Thank you for your prior two posts especially, Ash.   I did very much agree with all you posted.  Thank you very much too for prayer for all of us at Adoration on Wednesday.

3 hours ago, Ash Wednesday said:

. I already see it now with how people are fighting over the Vigano paper. 

...........just as there was vigorous infighting/arguing over Amoris Laetitia.   Not so much now as the media takes up and pushes, flogs, something more inflammatory and sensational.   That is not to lessen the terrible seriousness of these scandals - rather a comment about media at times. The Church is a huge target - but then we have made some very huge claims for ourselves.  We are called by Pope Francis specifically in this crisis and as the Universal Church to prayer and penance because of the scandals........and yes, we are called by God to be representatives of His Gospel, His Church at all times and everywhere including posting on Phatmass.  Big personal mea culpa there.

The nun who taught me used to say "always pray for an increase of Faith" and I did wonder what she meant...........now I know.  

It is very true i.e. your comments that the human institution of The Church is not ideally, for anyone in my book, the core elements of Faith, which is why Faith is not shaken by what is happening in The Church.  There is a Psalm in The Hours I have long embraced:

Psalm 146: 

Put no trust in princes,
    in children of Adam powerless to save.
Who breathing his last, returns to the earth;
    that day all his planning comes to nothing.

Blessed the one whose help is the God of Jacob,
    whose hope is in the Lord, his God,

 

At last I have my props back 

______________

I was almost bowled over by the following beautiful move and sharing by a bishop- published by Catholic Culture, although I do not always take on board what CC.org has to say.    In fact, the whole article is a great read in full on the abuse crisis -  https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=1634 :

Quote

 

"And speaking of prayer, let me call attention to something that is not an editorial commentary, not even a press release, but a simple announcement, hidden away in a parish bulletin, by Bishop Robert Reed, an auxiliary in the Boston archdiocese. Bishop Reed apparently did not intend this statement for wide circulation.

__________________

"These days I find myself deeply disturbed by what is happening in the Church. I know that bishops must act decisively and that action needs to be thorough, transparent, professional, and in cooperation with competent laypeople.

But still, I ask the question: what can I do?

All I know is that I can pray and do penance. To that end, and as your pastor, I commit myself to a full day and night of public penance.

On Monday, September 24, 2018, I will celebrate the 9 o’clock Mass in Saint Ann Church as I usually do. Following that Mass I will expose the Blessed Sacrament and remain there in prayer and fasting until the next morning, concluding this period of prayer and penance with the celebration of the 9:00 Mass on Tuesday.

All throughout this period, the church will remain open. You are most welcome to join me in prayer..."

 

I did have a giggle at Bishop Reed's comment about "co-operation with competent lay people" and the Peter Paul and Mary lyric line almost immediately came to mind "when will they ever learn, oh when will they ever learn".

Edited August 29, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[Peace]

6 hours ago, Josh said:

Sounding like Bill Donohue lol Smh

And you are sounding like and idiot who cannot distinguish fact from opinion. Smh

6 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I do sincerely wish I could hold confidently to the above.

Look into the preventative measures that the Church has taken, and then compare them to other institutions.

There is a Washington Post article that concludes exactly that, and it isn’t like this paper has some pro-Catholic bias.

4 hours ago, Ash Wednesday said:

I suppose the reason why I'd like to think or at least HOPE I wouldn't lose my faith is because I separate the actual human part of the Church from my core religious beliefs, including the fact that the Church belongs to Christ and everyone eventually has to answer to Him. The Lord sees and knows so much ugliness that we probably can't even begin to comprehend. 

My uncle was a priest and I think my father saw a lot of ugly politics behind the scenes and he's always been pretty turned off and cynical about faith as a result. Not completely, he goes to church and I don't know his soul. But I get the sense that for all the ugly things we hear about in dysfunctional families, there's a lot that goes on within the clergy on all levels that we don't always hear about that is all kinds of horrific when we do.

 

"Deep Thoughts With Ash Wednesday" 

If we abandon your faith what do you think the Lord will say to us on our judgment day? I will give you a pass because it is difficult to persevere through tests?

There is no valid excuse for abandoning one’s faith, and there will always be corruption and difficulties within the Church. The weeds and the wheat grow together until the harvest.

[Ash Wednesday]

I've read a lot of things over the years that I thought were crazy conspiracy theories, though these days I'm not so sure. I'm starting to think anything is possible and I will just say this -- as much as I want to believe the best in everyone in our Church and sometimes people mean well and make mistakes,  today I've been thinking there are and were people who entered our Church and our seminaries in order to destroy it from within and it's gone on for a long time.

I would not dare name names or say who, because I really don't know. God only knows. But now I think anything is possible and I pray we can be purged of it if so.

15 minutes ago, Peace said:

If we abandon your faith what do you think the Lord will say to us on our judgment day? I will give you a pass because it is difficult to persevere through tests?

There is no valid excuse for abandoning one’s faith, and there will always be corruption and difficulties within the Church. The weeds and the wheat grow together until the harvest.

Where did I say that I would? I just didn't want to sound presumptuous and arrogant about myself and set myself up for a fall. 

And where did I say I "excused" anyone?

[Peace]

7 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said:

I've read a lot of things over the years that I thought were crazy conspiracy theories, though these days I'm not so sure. I'm starting to think anything is possible and I will just say this -- as much as I want to believe the best in everyone in our Church and sometimes people mean well and make mistakes,  today I've been thinking there are and were people who entered our Church and our seminaries in order to destroy it from within and it's gone on for a long time.

I would not dare name names or say who, because I really don't know. God only knows. But now I think anything is possible and I pray we can be purged of it if so.

Where did I say that I would? I just didn't want to sound presumptuous and arrogant about myself and set myself up for a fall. 

And where did I say I "excused" anyone?

You did not say that you would, and you did not say that you excused anyone. But let’s keep it real, there are plenty of people who use Church corruption as an excuse to do just that.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Peace said:

 

Look into the preventative measures that the Church has taken, and then compare them to other institutions.

I know that The Church is seriously striving to have stringent measures in place to address, in this instance, matters of sexual abuse within The Church.  " I do not think there is any organization that is safer for children than the Catholic Church today" - I still wish that I could have confidence in your statement, but I don't.  There is something terribly amiss in The Church and it seems to be endemic.  Have we are we really getting at and rooting out the primary problem?   We certainly cannot root out a problem until it is accurately identified.

There is a Washington Post article that concludes exactly that, and it isn’t like this paper has some pro-Catholic bias.

Opinion only - and as opinion it as validity as an opinion.

 

4 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said:

I've been thinking there are and were people who entered our Church and our seminaries in order to destroy it from within and it's gone on for a long time.

I would not dare name names or say who, because I really don't know. God only knows. But now I think anything is possible and I pray we can be purged of it if so.

I think we need to take Pope Francis's call to prayer and penance very seriously.  I don't think that means hours in prayer or extraordinary acts of penance..........other than those blest in that rare, I suspect, type of way and even for those so graced to not do so without spiritual advice.  I certainly am not blest thus.  It does mean to me that I have resolved on some form of prayer and some definite penance in deep sorrow for what has occured - and to ask of The Lord the Grace to address all issues in accordance with His Will.

4 minutes ago, Peace said:

But let’s keep it real, there are plenty of people who use Church corruption as an excuse to do just that.

I do think that there is a conspiracy.  A conspiracy of Satan.  The abuse crisis has the mark of something terribly evil and as some commentators have stated, a mark of satanic genius.  It is a definite strike at the Universal Church..........on some level to some degree (as I posted elsewhere) probably ever Catholic in all the vocational states up to the top feels abused by these terrible events.  I sure do.

[Peace]

29 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

 

I think we need to take Pope Francis's call to prayer and penance very seriously.  I don't think that means hours in prayer or extraordinary acts of penance..........other than those blest in that rare, I suspect, type of way and even for those so graced to not do so without spiritual advice.  I certainly am not blest thus.  It does mean to me that I have resolved on some form of prayer and some definite penance in deep sorrow for what has occured - and to ask of The Lord the Grace to address all issues in accordance with His Will.

I do think that there is a conspiracy.  A conspiracy of Satan.  The abuse crisis has the mark of something terribly evil and as some commentators have stated, a mark of satanic genius.  It is a definite strike at the Universal Church..........on some level to some degree (as I posted elsewhere) probably ever Catholic in all the vocational states up to the top feels abused by these terrible events.  I sure do.

Well yeah, that is an opinion, but I think the numbers bear it out if you look at the decrease in accusations since 2002, and the specific polices and procedures that have been implemented.

Even if the Church has no genuine desire to reform, She is forced to do so by way of criminal investigation, civil lawsuits, and constant media scrutiny. Do you think there is any other organization that has been under the same spotlight as the Catholic Church for the past 2o years, with people just waiting to pounce on any new incident?

 I agree with you that Satan consistently attempts to attack the Church from within and without, and that much of the sexual abuse is influenced by Satan. That has always been the case and always will, until the end of time. It is what Satan lives to do, and there are will always be people willing to participate.

[dominicansoul]

Quote

 

DISCOURAGED CATHOLICS – MAN UP!

I know the church news at the moment is pretty grim. Its the summer of shame and all that, but Catholics should buckle up their swords and polish their shields.

It has always been a spiritual battle, and warfare is messy and there are casualties and there are innocent victims–collateral damage–as its called.

Disappointments are rooted in wrong expectations. When was the last time you read the Old Testament? The whole saga of God’s encounter with mankind is riddled with sin, corruption, immorality, unfaithfulness, betrayal and wickedness.

It is interesting to me that I felt called to produce my twenty part podcast series on the history of the Catholic Church last Spring before all this blew up.

I wanted to do so because I felt that Catholics needed to know that in every age there have been Triumphs and Tragedies in the church. The corruption, immorality and heresy–right to the top of the church’s structures–is nothing new, and the Holy Spirit has always triumphed in the end.

Whenever there has been corruption and heresy, immorality, greed and graft there has also been–at the grass roots level–movement of reform and renewal. God has always raised up the Benedicts and Bonifaces, the Francis of Assisi and the Francis Xavier, Ignatius and Augustine, the Cure d’Ars and Padre Pio.

God has also raised up a multitude of ordinary lay people who have kept the faith and moved forward on their knees, rolled up their sleeves and did what they could with what they had where they are.

Do I feel discouraged at this point? Not me. I feel encouraged. The rot is being rooted out. The gangrene is being burnt out. The dead branches are being pruned and will be thrown on the fire.

So be it.

So what am I going to do about it and what can you do about it? It seems frustrating and pointless because bishops are not elected. You can’t vote the corrupt bishop or archbishop out at the end of his four year term.

I know it is frustrating, but renewal and reform in the church never starts from the top. It always starts small with individuals who are dedicated to God. It always starts at the grass roots level, not at the top of the tree.

When popes and bishops have moved to reform the church it has invariably been the result of a long process in which the impetus for reform has moved from the bottom to the top.

Therefore, if you are at the bottom of the ecclesial pyramid you are exactly the person who can do something about it. St Benedict did what he could with what he had where he was. St Francis did the same. So did all the great saints. They did what they could with what they had where they were and they did not know that their labors would one day bear great and history changing movements.

So do not be discouraged. Man up (ladies too by the way. I’m thinking of Catherine of Siena, Teresa of Avila etc)

Here are twelve things ordinary Catholics can do.

Support your good priests and bishops. Most of the priests and bishops are good men who are not corrupted. If your priest and bishops are good, faithful men write and thank them for their ministry and re-assure them of your prayers and support.

Criticize the unfaithful shepherds. If your priests and bishops are lazy, heterodox, financially corrupt and part of the problem, write them a respectful letter and say why you disagree with them and why you are with holding your funds from their diocese or parish.

Support worthy Catholic causes. If you do with hold your giving to the diocese or parish make sure you support other worthy Catholic causes with your donations, your prayer and your time. Don’t give up on God’s work just because you can’t support your diocese. If you want to support your parish, but not your bishop set up a charity so funds can go directly  and 100% to the worthy Catholic causes in your locality.

Learn the Catholic faith in its fullness. If your bishop or priest are heretical or heterodox, immoral or corrupt, don’t rage and rebel and become bitter. Simply learn the Catholic faith better yourself. Avoid the big establishment “Catholic” colleges and universities. There are loads of excellent resources available from faithful Catholic publishers, smaller Catholic colleges and online sources.

Promote the fullness of the Catholic faith. Start a parish study and prayer group. Start a parish men’s or women’s group. Get together with others and start a Marian conference or a Eucharistic Conference. Get some good speakers in. Make it a joyful and positive event.

Nurture strong Catholic boys and men. Part of the crisis in society and in the church is a crisis in masculinity. Don’t rage and fret and fume and blame homosexuals. Instead respond by starting a men’s group, a men’s conference, Fraternus, That Man is You or Troops of St George.

Evangelize. Put your support into one of the many apostolates that are sound, solid and doing fantastic work in the area of online evangelization, publication of good materials, training a new generation of religious, educators and apologists. My blog-website, for instance, relies on Donor Subscribers to remain ad free and to pay for hosting, promotion, maintenance and development. There are many others who rely on your support. If you need to, shift your giving to these causes you believe in.

Minister to the needy. The corporal works of mercy are one of the ways Jesus is alive in the world today. Get involved in your local pro life group, the soup kitchen or the food pantry. Get involved in helping immigrant brothers and sisters or working to raise awareness and funds for persecuted Christians.

Don’t worry and don’t be bitter. Rage if you must about the abuse and the cover ups, but realize what you can do and what you have no power to do. God is in charge. He is always renewing his church. Find where that is happening and join in. Let those who have responsibility for disciplining and exposing the wrong doers get on with their work and do what you can do where you are.

Do not neglect the liturgy. A beautiful, robust and traditional celebration of the liturgy is not just a pretty museum piece or a performance. It is the prayer of the church, thunder reversed, heaven in ordinary, the power of the cross in the present moment and the surge of resurrection in the world today. Celebrate the liturgy with reverence, beauty and the fire of love. This is what will save the church and save the world.

Pray more. Read the Bible every day.

Pause to enjoy life. God is good and life is good. Decide that you will not be overwhelmed by fear and despair. Ask for a greater gift of faith.

Finally, remember that evil always eventually collapses in on itself. This is because evil is a lie and a lie has no internal support structure. Evil is always something beautiful, good and true that is either distorted or being destroyed. It may seem substantial, but it is a fleeting shadow. It is an dissonant tune and an empty song. Evil and lies will always, always, always fall flat. It is a house build on shifting sand.

This is how Satan works: Because his lies have no real substance and have not inner energy or life he must keep promoting his lies and making them bigger and bigger. That is the only way he can keep them going–by exaggerating them more and more. His lies are like a corpse into which an insane undertaker keeps pumping formaldehyde and keeps caking more make up on the greenish decaying face. Eventually the lie is exposed. He overplays his hand. We see the evil for what it is, and when that happens the wicked ones roar with rage for the battle has begun.

We are at that stage now. So do not be afraid. He has overplayed his hand.

Let us get on with the task at hand!

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

https://dwightlongenecker.com/discouraged-catholics-man-up/

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Peace said:

And you are sounding like and idiot who cannot distinguish fact from opinion. Smh

 

Enlighten me. All I'm hearing from you is the reports are fabricated and we should just continue covering up ***.