More Than 300 Predator Priests In Pennsylvania Protected By Catholic Church

[Guest]

The world can be a dangerous place. My kids could be abused and violated anywhere. I'm not a helicopter parent out to protect them from any and all risk. But to wade through the toxic sludge of the grand jury report; to follow the story of Theodore McCarrick's loathsome character and career; to confront the allegations piled up in Viganò's memo — it is to come face to face with monstrous, grotesque ugliness. It is to see the Catholic Church as a repulsive institution — or at least one permeated by repulsive human beings who reward one another for repulsive acts, all the while deigning to lecture the world about its sin.

No thanks. I'm done.

And I bet I'll have a lot of company headed for the door.

http://theweek.com/articles/792775/unbearable-ugliness-catholic-church

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Guest

[Anomaly]

Josh, 

Imagine if I knew what sins you have repeatedly confessed to a priest.   I could say that the Catholic Church is BS because it welcomes you and hasn’t fixed you, so why would I want to be a Catholic?

The same goes for these priests.  They are all human and have faults.    All the way to the Pope.  Officially, the Church condemns the sin.   Though a few (or many) in power are evil and may enable themselves and others to do evil, they are still the minority.    

No need to reject Catholicism because of people like you, or people like McCarrick.    The worst of you two is not what the Religion is about.   It’s about helping you to be a better person.   It’s never been a “magic” that makes you better despite your intent.  Catholicism has always been about a new start, despite what you did a second ago. 

I wouldn't leave my kids with a teacher, Freind, family member, nun, or priest I didn’t know well.  People expected teachers and clergy to be safe because of the job they have.  Parents were naive to lots of predators in sheep’s clothing.   But you don’t abandon the whole flock because you find a few wolves.   You check out the sheep that you vome in contact  with a bit closer.    Even if they’re a doctor or teacher or clergy.  

[Guest]

I'm not a pedophile or a sexual abuser nor have I ever protected one. Let me get this straight. Women who had abortions were automatically excommunicated and couldn't get absolved in Confession by a Priest? Yet a pedophile could get absolved and remain a Priest and get moved to a new Parish? And this is guided by the Holy Spirit? Well of course to you it's not becuase you don't believe any of that crazy ****. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Guest

[Peace]

4 hours ago, Josh said:

Enlighten me. All I'm hearing from you is the reports are fabricated and we should just continue covering up ***.

If that is what you are hearing you should go to a doctor and get your ears checked. And your mind while you are at it.

3 hours ago, Josh said:

The world can be a dangerous place. My kids could be abused and violated anywhere. I'm not a helicopter parent out to protect them from any and all risk. But to wade through the toxic sludge of the grand jury report; to follow the story of Theodore McCarrick's loathsome character and career; to confront the allegations piled up in Viganò's memo — it is to come face to face with monstrous, grotesque ugliness. It is to see the Catholic Church as a repulsive institution — or at least one permeated by repulsive human beings who reward one another for repulsive acts, all the while deigning to lecture the world about its sin. 

No thanks. I'm done.

And I bet I'll have a lot of company headed for the door.

http://theweek.com/articles/792775/unbearable-ugliness-catholic-church

You were done before Josh. Now you have your excuse.

[Kateri89]

15 hours ago, Peace said:

Come on now. All of a sudden I do not view the Church as the body of Christ? 

By “highest ideals, “ if you are referring to the moral law, everyone is held to the same standard, be it the CEO of Heinz, you, me, or Pope Francis. There are no higher or lower moral standards for different people.

If by “highest ideals,” you mean to suggest that the Catholic Church should just open up all of her vaults and willingly disclose all of her private documents to any Tom, Dick and Harry who wants it, I do not see how that is a “highest ideal” at all. There is no supernatural virtue that entails disclosing all of one’s private information to the public. Certainly abusing children, and protecting those who abuse children, run contrary to our faith, but there is nothing inconsistent with our faith about exercising discretion when it comes to the public disclosure of internal communications.

You seem to think that not allowing the public unfettered access to any and all internal church documents that have anything to do with sexual abuse accusations or investigations is tantamount to protecting abusers, but that is simply not true. In the first place we do not even know how many of those cases are substantiated, unless you blindly take at face value the AG’s opinion that they are all guilty.

I mean think about it - what always happens when a grand jury comes back with an indictment? A defendant goes to trial to determine actual guilt or innocence. Whoever heard of a grand jury investigating people who it is impossible to have a trial to determine guilt or innocence because they are dead, or cannot be prosecuted because the alleged acts occurred decades ago? This is not a legitimate use of the criminal court system, but a political stunt.

Now, if the AG wants to take all 300 of these cases, and give them a true trial or hearing like proceeding in order to determine, as best as possible, actual guilt or innocence, giving the people whom the accusations are made against a fair opportunity to defend themselves against the accusations made against them, in other words, actually attempting to discern truth in a fair and objective manner, I would be supportive of that. But the AG has no interest in doing that at all. He is using the grand jury as a political opportunity to levy accusations, without giving the accused his day  in court to defend himself against those accusations.

Perhaps some of the accused would have stepped up and said, no I am not guilty of this, what the report said about me is not true, etc., and I am suing you for slander, but as most of them are dead that is difficult for them to do. You have some accusations in there dating back 70 years.

Well since 2002 or so it has been the policy to report all accusations to the police, whether deemed credible or not, from what I understand. And I totally agree with that. We’ll always have instances where people do not do what they are required to do, and where people fall through the cracks, because we are sinful.

But that being said, and not a reason to cease being diligen, I do not think there is any organization that is safer for children than the Catholic Church today, as far as the policies and procedures that we have put in place to prevent abuse. 

First, let me apologize for suggesting that you don’t view the Church as the body of Christ.  I’m sincerely sorry for suggesting that; this whole mess has really struck a nerve for me not just because of the serious allegations but also because they occurred largely within my own diocese and I recognized three priests in the report including the Bishop who presided over my confirmation, the current Bishop, and my childhood parish priest.  I think my response was out of anger and frustration and I shouldn’t have imputed any such thoughts or intentions to you.

That being said, I stand by my position that the Church is called to higher standards.  God calls us all to constantly seek perfection, but the mission of the Church vs the mission of secular organizations and companies are very different.  I don’t think that the Church has to release all internal documents.  What I’m suggesting is that if there were credible allegations against priests, which evidently there were because some of them were eventually defrocked after a long time of reassignments and one even ended up in prison despite clergy covering for him, then the parishioners have every right to know.  Megan’s Law requires sex offenders to be registered and this is available for the public to see; certainly this should extend to the Church as well.  I’m a nurse and a mandated reporter which means that if a patient of mine reports abuse, I’m required by law to report it to the proper authorities even if it ends up being untrue.  I can tell you that I have personally done this on multiple occasions.  It seems clear to me that when these allegations were received throughout the decades, the clergy had a moral responsibility (if it wasn’t already required by law) to report them to the authorities.  Then the accused would’ve had their chance to defend themselves.  If some of them actually were innocent, then their superiors did them no favors by hiding it because now they’re posthumously disgraced without being able to defend themselves as you said.

For those that were actually guilty, they didn’t receive the punishment they needed and the victims didn’t get justice.  

I would hold anybody inside of or outside of the Church to this standard.  However, as Catholics we know that being holy is about much more than not being a criminal.  It’s about the supernatural virtues that God grants us when we totally abandon ourselves to His will.  To violate His will in such a grave way isn’t just criminal in a worldly sense; it’s evil.

[little2add]

 

 

[Peace]

15 hours ago, Kateri89 said:

First, let me apologize for suggesting that you don’t view the Church as the body of Christ.  I’m sincerely sorry for suggesting that; this whole mess has really struck a nerve for me not just because of the serious allegations but also because they occurred largely within my own diocese and I recognized three priests in the report including the Bishop who presided over my confirmation, the current Bishop, and my childhood parish priest.  I think my response was out of anger and frustration and I shouldn’t have imputed any such thoughts or intentions to you.

That being said, I stand by my position that the Church is called to higher standards.  God calls us all to constantly seek perfection, but the mission of the Church vs the mission of secular organizations and companies are very different.  I don’t think that the Church has to release all internal documents.  What I’m suggesting is that if there were credible allegations against priests, which evidently there were because some of them were eventually defrocked after a long time of reassignments and one even ended up in prison despite clergy covering for him, then the parishioners have every right to know.  Megan’s Law requires sex offenders to be registered and this is available for the public to see; certainly this should extend to the Church as well.  I’m a nurse and a mandated reporter which means that if a patient of mine reports abuse, I’m required by law to report it to the proper authorities even if it ends up being untrue.  I can tell you that I have personally done this on multiple occasions.  It seems clear to me that when these allegations were received throughout the decades, the clergy had a moral responsibility (if it wasn’t already required by law) to report them to the authorities.  Then the accused would’ve had their chance to defend themselves.  If some of them actually were innocent, then their superiors did them no favors by hiding it because now they’re posthumously disgraced without being able to defend themselves as you said.

For those that were actually guilty, they didn’t receive the punishment they needed and the victims didn’t get justice.  

I would hold anybody inside of or outside of the Church to this standard.  However, as Catholics we know that being holy is about much more than not being a criminal.  It’s about the supernatural virtues that God grants us when we totally abandon ourselves to His will.  To violate His will in such a grave way isn’t just criminal in a worldly sense; it’s evil.

Thanks. No worries. I agree with most of what you wrote above.

[Ash Wednesday]

That awkward moment when an atheist has a better understanding of the Catholic faith.

[Peace]

18 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said:

That awkward moment when an atheist has a better understanding of the Catholic faith.

LOL. Well FWIW, @Anomaly is an atheist in name only. He knows very well that God exists and that Catholicism is true. He just doesn’t want to live it.

[Anomaly]

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

LOL. Well FWIW, @Anomaly is an atheist in name only. He knows very well that God exists and that Catholicism is true. He just doesn’t want to live it.

@PeaceFWIW, You don’t really know me, know what I may know, or have a clue about how I live. But thanks for playing.

@Josh   Murder is probably worse than rape.   The Church teaches everything can be forgiven and everyone reconciled.   There are evil people who take advantage of that and abuse that ideal. You have always expressed passion about what you see as wrong.    I wish you peace of heart and mind, my friend.  

[dominicansoul]

nevermind, I'm just not gonna say anything about this anymore.  the whole entire thing makes me sick and I feel like people complaining about their loss of Faith just make it worse..

 

laters, Phatmass...

Edited August 30, 2018 by dominicansoul
We need a SMALLER, STRONGER CHURCH

[Ash Wednesday]

Quote

 If I didn't really believe in all of the theological precepts taught by the church, at least I wanted to — because I considered them beautiful, and because I wanted to be a part of the beauty, to elevate myself by assimilating myself to it.

That impulse seems very far away from me now. 

This is quoted from the article that Josh posted about the writer leaving the Church -- this quote suggests to me that the writer of the article joined the Church through impulse and emotion, but really did not believe all of the teachings of the Church. This happens a LOT.

His joining the Church sounds similar to my best friend who joined the Church in the late 90s -- I was her sponsor. I never forced her into it. She asked me about it, I explained it to her and eventually she wanted to be Catholic. When you become good friends, you tend to influence each other that way. She was trying to get on board with the teachings at the time and she really was in love with Catholic things, Catholic saints, Catholic devotions, and the idea of being Catholic. Because of her reservations and struggles with core teachings of the Church, I came to our parish priest about it, raised my concerns, and he arranged to have a private meeting with her. Everything went forward and she joined the Church, but after some time of trying to embrace the teachings and be a "good Catholic" but still simmering with questions and lingering resentment about things in the Church she found distasteful, she eventually fell away. 

I could go on about the fact that our parish's RCIA programs are kind of a conveyer belt where people who don't really accept the faith still join the Church, even the RCIA teachers don't really accept it ("I hate this part, the birth control part, but I have to go over this" -- literally what our RCIA instructor said.)

But being Catholic isn't just about nice stained glass windows, pretty rosaries, admiring the way things are written in the Catechism, uplifting spiritual experiences, fellowship, and tucking in to a nice Knights of Columbus Lenten fish fry. 

Being Catholic is also the cross and crucifixion. We don't get the luxury of being obscure and invisible like smaller churches and institutions during times like this. Those of us who choose to stay and want to clean up this mess will be called enablers, backwoods, unsophisticated, repressed, ignorant, dimwitted archaic fools. As the Body of Christ, we feel humiliation, anger, brokenness, abandonment, and intense suffering.

The first time I tried to consecrate myself to the Immaculate Heart, my mom died suddenly and I'm not sure I will ever fully get over it. The second time I tried and finally finished the prayer, among other trials, I went through a period of suffering from a health condition that was literally the worst pain and suffering I have ever endured in my entire life. I remember at one point praying for death. Maybe I was expecting a much more pleasant spiritual experience when I made the consecration, but what I got was the cross. Both times. And that's what I learned.

What I hope the Church collectively will learn from this, even if it has to be a smaller Church -- is conviction and authenticity.  Conviction -- truly believing and embracing it all in full even when it's hard, and authenticity -- truly living it.

[Peace]

2 hours ago, Anomaly said:

The Church teaches everything can be forgiven and everyone reconciled.

Yup, even you can be reconciled, when you are ready.

[Guest]

On 8/30/2018 at 12:41 PM, dominicansoul said:

nevermind, I'm just not gonna say anything about this anymore.  the whole entire thing makes me sick and I feel like people complaining about their loss of Faith just make it worse..

 

laters, Phatmass...

I'm definitely not losing my faith. I've believed in God my entire life. My faith is in God not some institution or religion. I didn't really before but now I refuse to put Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, or Priests on some pedistool. The same with Pastors, Preachers ect I'm all but through with religion at this point. I'm still a practicing Catholic but pure religion is helping the widow and visiting those in Prison. That's what the Bible says at least. My entire life religion has proven itself and over again to be a hypocrital system/peope that props itself up and uses that platform to present itself as perfect at all costs while judging others and casting stones. This is often how religious people act and come across. And usually the ones doing that are always hiding a bunch of stuff in their own closet. Been guilty myself as well. Thank God you don't need religion to know him. At least not the religion I desribed above. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

I am really hoping that the following will not come across to you as patronizing and condescending.  Such is not my intention one little bit.  I admire you, Josh, for speaking out your particular truth and viewpoint quite fearlessly.  In my own journey too, I searched for truth and it was because that was indeed my search, I eventually found Truth, or rather He found me and led me along a way that is His Way.

Your previous post came across to me as rationalising a decision you have made and as with all things, I can be wrong.  It sounds as if that which now fills you with disgust and rejection was something that you had previously embraced - and perhaps that was your mistake.   You are now disillusioned and that is a jolly good thing - not at all good to have illusions about anything.  And it can be really detrimental to have illusions about leaders.  Leaders and leadership are two entirely different things.  Leaders are the human element of leadership which is a sound and necessary role in many facets of human life.  Our priesthood and hierarchy, leadership, are necessary and holy roles, but the human beings who are priests and hierarchy, leadership, are not necessarily good at all, we can only hope and pray they are and will be in the future.  It is not the only thing we can do, it is the BEST THING we can do.

We have now discovered that our Church probably needs a radical cleansing of priests and hierarchy, our leadership.  We can only hope and pray that those who fill those roles will be good and holy human beings once, that is, Jesus has cleansed His Church - and He has told us "the gates of Hell will not prevail".

A few Sundays back  we heard about Jesus stating "unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you will not have life in you".  People were so shocked at this they walked away along with some disciples.  So Jesus turns to His apostles and asks: "Will you also go?"

As Catholics abandon their Catholicism in practice because of this shocking abuse crisis, I can almost hear, I think, Jesus asking "Will you also go?"   

Putting faith and trust totally in human beings can be a very big mistake, a huge mistake.  Only The Lord deserves and is worthy of total faith and trust.  And if I want to know what He, Jesus, is about - I only need read the Gospels, letters and the Old Testament.

In this morning's Morning Prayer:

Quote

 

Psalm 117 (118) In my time of trial I called out to the Lord:  he listened, and led me to freedom.

The Lord is with me,  I will fear nothing that man can do. The Lord, my help, is with me,

  and I shall look down upon my enemies.

It is good to seek shelter in the Lord,  better than to trust in men.

 

If you still have faith in God is that at once faith in Jesus?  Jesus was a faithful Jew and attended synagogue and the temple when required. However, He certainly was not blind to the failures of leadership in His religion - as we know.  He was loudly critical of them and called them dreadful names.  

"Take up your cross and follow Me" and you are completely correct I think, Josh, that true religion is not ONLY about attending Mass and following the rules and regulations.  True Catholic Faith and practice will change us in a radical manner - a total about face "I will take your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh" (from the Reading at Morning Prayer today).

2 hours ago, Josh said:

helping the widow and visiting those in Prison. That's what the Bible says

Spot on in my book!  Keep on keeping on, Josh, The Church needs members who will speak up and point out error and wrongs and especially in our day at this time.  We are anointed as priests, kings and prophets - and prophecy is really about pointing out error and calling people back to truth....less than it is about telling the future.

It is only these terrible crimes that are making headlines in the media - we are saturated with them almost so it seems there is nothing else in Catholicism but crime and cover up.  It is easy to forget that the majority of our priests and hierarchy, leadership, are good, devoted and holy people - hard and concerned workers in their vocations.

I believe that Jesus is cleansing His Church and it is going to take time, perhaps much time.