phatcatholic Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jun 28 2004, 09:34 AM']Answers About Scripture What Scriptures are authoritative? The Torah? The Old Testament? The New Testament? Are there other Scriptures? The BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Holy Scriptures) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Covenant), is the only and authoritative word of God. We accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. (I) Are Scriptures infallible? Were they written by God? The BIBLE is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration. (I) Answers About God Is there one God or three? What about the trinity? We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness, and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (II) Do your members believe in Jesus (Yeshua)? Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel. He is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. He is our Passover, the Lamb of God. (IIB) Is Yeshua (Jesus) is the Son of God? God does have a Son, called Yeshua (Jesus). (II.B.1) Was Yeshua born of a virgin? The Son, called Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, came to this world born of a virgin. (II.B.2) Is Yeshua Divine? Is He God? The Son, Yeshua, is God (Deity), and is worshipped as God, having existed eternally. (II.B.3) Is Yeshua is the promised Jewish Messiah? This One, the Son Yeshua, is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel. (II.B.4) Do your members believe in the Holy Spirit? Does Holy Spirit exist? Yes. (II.C) Is the Holy Spirit in the Tenach (Old Covenant Scriptures) or is this just a new Testament teaching? In the Tenach, the Spirit of God came upon individuals during the times of our forefathers, like Moses, David, and the Prophets, for the specific purposes. (II.C.2) What is the Holy Spirit's role? Are you charismatic? In the New Covenant, the Messiah, Yeshua, promised His disciples that "the Comforter" would come to them after He was gone, described as the Spirit of Truth, who was with them and would be in them. Yeshua further declared that the Spirit of Truth, would guide us into all truth and would glorify Him - the Messiah - not Himself. He empowers us. He seals us. If we have not the Spirit, we are not His. He leads us and teaches us. His indwelling enables us to live a godly life. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, be immersed, and receive the Holy Spirit." (II.C.3) Answers About Man Was man created by God, or did we evolve? Man was created in the image of God. (III) Is there such a thing as sin? Through disobedience, man fell from his first state and became separated from God. Therefore, according to the Scriptures, all men are born with a sinful nature. (III.B) Is there only one way to heaven? How is man redeemed? Is salvation necessary? Man's only hope for redemption (salvation) is through the atonement made by the Messiah, resulting in regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which is the new birth. For by grace we are saved through faith, it is a gift of God. (III.C) Are Messianic Jews "born again?" The atonement of Messiah results in regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which is the new birth. (III.C) Is there an afterlife? Is there a heaven? Is there a hell? We believe in the resurrection of both the redeemed and the lost: the former to everlasting life and the latter to eternal separation from God, a state of everlasting punishment. (IV) Is there one or two comings of Messiah? The Scriptures promised two "comings" of the Messiah. (V) Answers Questions About Israel, Jews, and Non-Jews Is God gathering the Jewish people back to the land of Israel? We believe in God's end-time plan for the nation of Israel and for the world. A central part of Messianic Judaism is the belief in the physical and spiritual restoration of Israel, as taught in the Scriptures. The greatest miracle of our day has been the re-establishment or rebirth of the State of Israel according to prophecy. (VI) Don't Jewish people stop being Jewish when they believe in Yeshua (Jesus)? Shouldn't Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus) give up their Jewish identity? We recognize that Jewish people (physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, whether through the mother's or the father's blood-line) who place their faith in Israel's Messiah, Yeshua, continue to be Jewish according to the Scriptures. (VII) Who is Jewish? What about those who are not born Jewish? We recognize that Jewish people are physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, whether through the mother's or the father's blood-line. Gentiles who place their faith in Yeshua, are "grafted into" the Jewish olive tree of faith becoming spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham. (VII.A) Do you celebrate Jewish or Christian holidays? Do you keep the feasts of Israel? We observe and celebrate the Jewish Holy Days given by God to Israel, with their fulfillment in and through the Messiah Yeshua (VII.B) Is salvation by faith? Is it necessary to keep the Torah? Do Jews need to follow the law of Moses? Is the Law of Moses valid today? We believe that true "Biblical Judaism," the faith of first century believers, which we seek to practice, acknowledges the continuity of faith in the one true God, revealed throughout the Scriptures, and ultimately manifested in God's Son, Yeshua the Messiah. We believe that salvation has always been "by faith," and that works of law, or righteous acts, have never saved anyone. (VII.B) Are there now two Bodies of Messiah, one for Messianic Jews and one for everyone else? We acknowledge that the New Covenant body of believers is composed of both Jews and Gentiles who have received Yeshua the Messiah as the Promised Redeemer. The "middle wall of partition" has been broken down and now we worship the God of Israel together. (VII.C) For More Information... Statement of Faith What is Messianic Judaism? What is the MJAA? Joining the MJAA Also See The Difference Between a Church and a Messianic Synagogue[/quote] all of that does make them appear rather Christian. would the litmus test be what the majority of Messianic Jews believe? at first this seems correct, but then, as i apply that test to catholicism, i'm not even sure if the majority of catholics believe orthodox catholic teaching. so, maybe that isn't a fair test. any more thoughts? Edited June 28, 2004 by phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Well, I suppose we should try to find the closest thing to an authoritative statement they have. I mean, we would want them to look at offical documents for what the Catholic Church believes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 I voted for "Non-Catholic: Christian," because the Jews (both Rabbinic and Messianic) possess the Old Testament revelation, which intimately connects them to the Catholic Church; and of course in the case of the Messianic Jews, because they accept the New Testament as well, they are even closer to the Catholic Church. In doing this I am following the example of the Apostolic See itself, which established the "Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews" as a part of the "Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity." The Jews, both Rabbinic Jews and even more so Messianic Jews, are proto-Christians, in the former case they are separated from the Catholic Church because they have rejected the doctrines of the incarnation and the Trinity, while in the latter case, i.e., the case of the Messianic Jews, they are more closely bound to the Catholic Church, because they recognize Christ as the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 29, 2004 Author Share Posted June 29, 2004 still undecided...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 They believe in the Trinity... they're Christian... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 I dont know. because some say they do, some dont. And theirs no distinction like in Protestantism, they all claim to be Messanics, whether they believe in the Trinity or Not. Id put it under Non-C-Christian, but maybe put a special mark or note warning people, not all follow this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jun 29 2004, 03:02 AM'] There is more than one Messianic Judaism movement out there. That is where the distinction should lay. I was at one Messianic Jewish site and after posting there realized that they dislike Christians, and try to follow more Jewish practices than anything. They deny the Trinity (still tryin to figure that one out now that I understand the Trinity so much more) and pretty much couldnt wait til I left them alone. They claim the Trinity is a Catholic/christian invention. Actually, one of there posters left a post stating something like, "Why do we even have to deal with these Christians, cant we have them removed?" They are very disorganized. But almost militant in their attitude. Not all are like this, but I bet I can find more sites that have the attitude of hostility like the one I am talking about rather than the one where I got that list from. If Phatcatholic ends up putting this under Non-Catholic:Christian. I would like it strongly noted that not all of those who claim to be Messianic Jews fall under those 'guidelines' that I posted. If they deviate outside of those guidelines, then they cannot be considered anything other than NON CHRISTIAN. [/quote] Yes! They are extremely hostile towards Christians, they believe they are the 'Nazrenes' Im not upto date on those. But they still hold onto the Anti-Gentile attitude. Very mixed up faith, especially since the apostles didnt have such an attitude towards them, and I dont think Christ did, but theirs something in Matthew that calls gentiles dogs or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 (edited) Thanks MorphRC, Look all. I am not saying it needs to be decided right now. One site in particular, where my sis is hanging out is a Messianic type site, yet when I asked them what the tenets of their faith were, NOT ONE of them could give me anything specific...except hostility. They claim that if they can get 2 or more to agree to something then its law...I mean, thats just plain crazy! They couldnt even agree to spell Yashua the same way, (it's spelled like this, No! like this, No! My way is right.) Very hostile towards the Church. Dont believe in the Trinity. Dont even understand the Trinity and therefore dont believe in it. I just dont want anyone to rush into a decision just yet. This is something that is gonna be posted in the reference section and I think we should just be careful to explain to someone visiting the reference section that all Messianic Jews are not like the ones that I put in that list up there. Not all believe in the Trinity. Some are very militant. Some have extreme hostility towards anyone who says theyre Christian. This, in all honesty, could be scary for someone who doesnt have enough information or is just discovering their faith. They could easily get confused, and I couldnt live with myself if someone were led astray because they thought that the entire Messianic movement is all nicey-nice. I know there are extremes in all religions. But unless I am wrong, dont all Catholics believe in the Trinity (even if some arent sure exactly how to describe it beyond Father, Son, Holy Spirit.) Just so you know, the site I speak of believes that God has 7 Spirits (as per Revelations 1:4) not 3 persons. My sis believes this too. Peace. Edited June 30, 2004 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 (edited) i'm putting them in the non-christian entry. i think i'm being super lenient w/ some of the groups in the christian entry as it is (pentecostalism and seventh-day adventism). messianic judaism is just too much of a stretch. thanks for everyone's input. pax christi, phatcatholic Edited June 30, 2004 by phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Good post Quiet & Ok to Phatcatholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 First of all, May God forgive me if I am wrong. I am not accusing or implying that Messianic Judaism is in any way Non-christian. I can only go by what I see and what I am told to evaluate any given situation. I reluctantly visit (but do not post any longer as to date) and read some of their posts and threads. There is a vast confusion there, and it actually makes my stomach turn. One member actually praises and loves Jack Chick and thanks him for his coming to an understanding of Yahweh, and still thinks Jack Chick offers so much good to their cause. Yet they claim they are not Christian. I also understand that Christ led his apostles slowly into their new understanding and knowledge, much like some Messianic movements might be doing. We may find that in a hundred years, literally thousands of Messianic Jews eventually become Catholic over time because they were able to digest this a bit at a time, bringing a richer depth to Catholicism because of their deeper knowledge of Judaism. ( I hope I am making sense here) Catholicism came from Judaism with a deeper knowledge of understanding of what God wanted from us for Him. God was tired of the sacrifices that the Jews were offering, their many laws (almost 700) that made it nearly impossible for any to follow with earnest. The dietary restrictions and contact restrictions with Gentiles and/or Pagans, just to name a few. Try to explain this to some people and they call you an idol worshipper. I do think though, that with the exception of that one site that I originally listed concerning their tenets of faith, that there is unequally more sites that do not follow those tenets. This is where we, as Catholics, must be careful in explaining to those who wish to learn. To simply state that all Messianic Jews are Non-Catholic Christians would lead far too many people to think that 'they are on their way home.' For far too many who post on these very non-christian sites that claim they are M.J.'s, this would be a dangerous assumption on our part. These same people get angry if you were to call them christian. Again, there is such an underlying layer of hatred there, that any sane person would flee from these sites. Also note that some of their members do not like even being called Messianic Jews. They claim they dont wish to be catagorized and labeled, yet cannot explain rationally as to why they feel that way. I hope some of my thoughts make sense. I had urged that a note be included with the listing, so that everyone would understand upon visiting the reference section that not all groups that claim to be Messianic Jews are actually Messianic Jews in the sense of our understanding. Thanks for letting me ramble. Peace :peace: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 ur thoughts are one reason why i included this group in the "non-christian" entry. i also included a note saying that messianic jewish beliefs often depend upon the particular church or synagogue you join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeymc Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 I am new to this site, but not new to Christianity... I would consider them Christian... because they believe that Jesus is the Christ...do they not?..... "Christian" is a pretty all encompassing title these days that usually refers to anyone... who believes in Jesus... That he is the savior of the world... in not so specific terms... or God... or both ofcourse... We don't want to over generalize the Messianic Jews.... because that is what many protestants do... taking small snipets of quotes and drawing all kinds of conclusions from them... usually concluding that WE are not Christians... according to their Standards of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 yes, but they are inconsistent both in their beliefs about Jesus and the Trinity. essentially, you're right, their beliefs cannot be generalized. so, b/c of this, and especially their inconsistency regarding Jesus and the Trinity, i decided to add them to the "Non-Catholic, Non-Christian" entry along w/a disclaimer informing the reader that Messianic Jews vary in their "Christian-ness" (woh, new word) pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeymc Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 I don't understand the purpose of the catorigization? When it comes down to it... Only God knows who the true Christians are. St. Augustine said that "There are those inside the Church who are actually outside the Church and there are those outside the Church who are actually within the Church." (not exact quote, from memory).. We all stand alone before God. I do not believe that Jesus is fretting over the official doctrines to which people claim to ascribe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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