phatcatholic Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 [b]note:[/b] along w/ your vote, please explain why thanks, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Non-Catholic:Non-Christian They dont claim to be Christian themselves, but Jews. And their beliefs are contrary to Christianity. IE: Following the Torah, which has offerings etc, which are no longer required due to Christ. Also they are differing beliefs about God, Trinity yes, trinity no. Im the first one.! YAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 While I may come to regret this, I think Morph RC is right. (he,he) I dont think they should be listed as a Christian source. All they seemed to have done is keep everything from Judaism and simply accept Christ as the Messiah. It is obvious that this is more of a 20th Century invention, although they claim it is biblically based with the Nazarenes and some Pharasees and such, but do they have any proof of this. They choose to continue in all things from their Jewish faith. They still observe the Sabbath, and Christ definitely changed that. They dont even celebrate Easter, but Passover. In essence they celebrate the slaughter of the Lamb?, but not his resurrection? They observe all Jewish holidays, and although some are very beautiful, didnt our Early Church Fathers put a stop to that? (the Apostles) The Apostles had the Holy Spirit guiding them, with 2000 years of early Church Fathers writings to back up and prove that these things and more were changed for a reason. It wasnt done simply to make us different, that wouldnt have made any sense. It was done because Christ brought us a new covenant. They choose to throw that out the window. Since these folks seem to adopt Christ on the basis that its Scriptural, they fail to see the Scriptural differences in following Christ. They continue in promoting the Torah, the Saturday Sabbath, and no where do they comment on receiving the Blood and Body of Our Saviour, thereby not having the Real Presence of Christ at their meetings. Had they accepted Catholicism, they would have realized that none of the traditions were lost, but rather fulfilled in all the teachings of Christ. It seems they are more afraid of giving up their original faith so they are working around it to suit their own needs. Again, Pride. Peace :peace: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 It looks like the litmus test is the Trinity. But I don’t know if they believe in the Trinity? If they don’t I need to take my vote back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 [color=red][b]While I may come to regret this, I think Morph RC is right. (he,he)[/b][/color] [color=red][b]A L E R T ! ! ![/b][/color] [b]Morph does have CREDITIBILITY! [/b]..lol..although my spelling might not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 [quote name='Cure of Ars' date='Jun 28 2004, 11:53 PM'] It looks like the litmus test is the Trinity. But I don’t know if they believe in the Trinity? If they don’t I need to take my vote back. [/quote] Litmus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 [quote]Morph does have CREDITIBILITY! ..lol..although my spelling might not[/quote] And again, you are right. Your spelling bites. In computer logic = bytes. Litmus is a dye obtained from various lichens. Litmus Test is originally a paper used to test acidity and alkalinity, by extension, 'an acid test'. A definitive test. Something nuetral is Litmusless. We use Litmus Strips at my job to test the water. Its just a term used here, but the principle still applies. Peace :peace: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Did some digging..hope this helps. This is interesting... [quote]Reciprocally, the Church has been a great blessing to the Messianic Jewish world. In fact, if it were not for the prayers, financial help and encouragement of Baptist, Pentecostals, Charismatics and other Bible believers, it is unlikely that modern Messianic Judaism would exist at all. These and other Protestant denominations have been God's partners in resurrecting the faith we call Messianic Judaism.[/quote] On some of their beliefs.... [quote]Answers About Scripture What Scriptures are authoritative? The Torah? The Old Testament? The New Testament? Are there other Scriptures? The BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Holy Scriptures) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Covenant), is the only and authoritative word of God. We accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. (I) Are Scriptures infallible? Were they written by God? The BIBLE is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration. (I) Answers About God Is there one God or three? What about the trinity? We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness, and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (II) Do your members believe in Jesus (Yeshua)? Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel. He is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. He is our Passover, the Lamb of God. (IIB) Is Yeshua (Jesus) is the Son of God? God does have a Son, called Yeshua (Jesus). (II.B.1) Was Yeshua born of a virgin? The Son, called Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, came to this world born of a virgin. (II.B.2) Is Yeshua Divine? Is He God? The Son, Yeshua, is God (Deity), and is worshipped as God, having existed eternally. (II.B.3) Is Yeshua is the promised Jewish Messiah? This One, the Son Yeshua, is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel. (II.B.4) Do your members believe in the Holy Spirit? Does Holy Spirit exist? Yes. (II.C) Is the Holy Spirit in the Tenach (Old Covenant Scriptures) or is this just a new Testament teaching? In the Tenach, the Spirit of God came upon individuals during the times of our forefathers, like Moses, David, and the Prophets, for the specific purposes. (II.C.2) What is the Holy Spirit's role? Are you charismatic? In the New Covenant, the Messiah, Yeshua, promised His disciples that "the Comforter" would come to them after He was gone, described as the Spirit of Truth, who was with them and would be in them. Yeshua further declared that the Spirit of Truth, would guide us into all truth and would glorify Him - the Messiah - not Himself. He empowers us. He seals us. If we have not the Spirit, we are not His. He leads us and teaches us. His indwelling enables us to live a godly life. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, be immersed, and receive the Holy Spirit." (II.C.3) Answers About Man Was man created by God, or did we evolve? Man was created in the image of God. (III) Is there such a thing as sin? Through disobedience, man fell from his first state and became separated from God. Therefore, according to the Scriptures, all men are born with a sinful nature. (III.B) Is there only one way to heaven? How is man redeemed? Is salvation necessary? Man's only hope for redemption (salvation) is through the atonement made by the Messiah, resulting in regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which is the new birth. For by grace we are saved through faith, it is a gift of God. (III.C) Are Messianic Jews "born again?" The atonement of Messiah results in regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which is the new birth. (III.C) Is there an afterlife? Is there a heaven? Is there a hell? We believe in the resurrection of both the redeemed and the lost: the former to everlasting life and the latter to eternal separation from God, a state of everlasting punishment. (IV) Is there one or two comings of Messiah? The Scriptures promised two "comings" of the Messiah. (V) Answers Questions About Israel, Jews, and Non-Jews Is God gathering the Jewish people back to the land of Israel? We believe in God's end-time plan for the nation of Israel and for the world. A central part of Messianic Judaism is the belief in the physical and spiritual restoration of Israel, as taught in the Scriptures. The greatest miracle of our day has been the re-establishment or rebirth of the State of Israel according to prophecy. (VI) Don't Jewish people stop being Jewish when they believe in Yeshua (Jesus)? Shouldn't Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus) give up their Jewish identity? We recognize that Jewish people (physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, whether through the mother's or the father's blood-line) who place their faith in Israel's Messiah, Yeshua, continue to be Jewish according to the Scriptures. (VII) Who is Jewish? What about those who are not born Jewish? We recognize that Jewish people are physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, whether through the mother's or the father's blood-line. Gentiles who place their faith in Yeshua, are "grafted into" the Jewish olive tree of faith becoming spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham. (VII.A) Do you celebrate Jewish or Christian holidays? Do you keep the feasts of Israel? We observe and celebrate the Jewish Holy Days given by God to Israel, with their fulfillment in and through the Messiah Yeshua (VII.B) Is salvation by faith? Is it necessary to keep the Torah? Do Jews need to follow the law of Moses? Is the Law of Moses valid today? We believe that true "Biblical Judaism," the faith of first century believers, which we seek to practice, acknowledges the continuity of faith in the one true God, revealed throughout the Scriptures, and ultimately manifested in God's Son, Yeshua the Messiah. We believe that salvation has always been "by faith," and that works of law, or righteous acts, have never saved anyone. (VII.B) Are there now two Bodies of Messiah, one for Messianic Jews and one for everyone else? We acknowledge that the New Covenant body of believers is composed of both Jews and Gentiles who have received Yeshua the Messiah as the Promised Redeemer. The "middle wall of partition" has been broken down and now we worship the God of Israel together. (VII.C) Â For More Information... Statement of Faith What is Messianic Judaism? What is the MJAA? Joining the MJAA Also See The Difference Between a Church and a Messianic Synagogue[/quote] I went to one of the links in Phatcatholics post on "Messianic Jews" in this section. I did a search on Trinity, and this came up. Peace :peace: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Ahh Litmus! i remember those from science class yrs ago..Ok thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 I say non-catholic: christian They believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, they believe in the Trinity, etc. They just hold to all the old laws too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Wow. Which ones are these? The ones I met on ChristianForums and other forums said they deny the Trinity. Seems there's as much confusion in messanic judaism as is in protestantism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 based on quietfire's post and some reading I had done before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Yeh Id agree. They seem to, even though some told me otherwise.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 (edited) There is more than one Messianic Judaism movement out there. That is where the distinction should lay. I was at one Messianic Jewish site and after posting there realized that they dislike Christians, and try to follow more Jewish practices than anything. They deny the Trinity (still tryin to figure that one out now that I understand the Trinity so much more) and pretty much couldnt wait til I left them alone. They claim the Trinity is a Catholic/christian invention. Actually, one of there posters left a post stating something like, "Why do we even have to deal with these Christians, cant we have them removed?" They are very disorganized. But almost militant in their attitude. Not all are like this, but I bet I can find more sites that have the attitude of hostility like the one I am talking about rather than the one where I got that list from. If Phatcatholic ends up putting this under Non-Catholic:Christian. I would like it strongly noted that not all of those who claim to be Messianic Jews fall under those 'guidelines' that I posted. If they deviate outside of those guidelines, then they cannot be considered anything other than NON CHRISTIAN. Edited June 28, 2004 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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