Pope Declares Death Penalty Inadmissible in All Cases

[fides' Jack]

On 8/3/2018 at 6:07 AM, Peace said:

 

Why, because your personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition is better than the Pope’s? Why don’t we just elect you the next pope since you apparently know more than he does.

No, because the pope would clearly be going against established Church teaching.  

I'm trying to make this whole thing make sense in a way that it doesn't put the pope's changes in a very bad light - not fit it into my own personal agenda.  As I've said, my own understanding has been evolving through this process.

On 8/3/2018 at 6:33 AM, dominicansoul said:

Another thing that bothers me is how Catholics in recent times have said you can’t be prolife and pro death penalty.  

Um...WRONG...

I think the generations after Vatican II have been the most ignorant of Church teaching.  The church has long tied death penalty with the value of human life, ie self defense.  So death penalty is actually prolife in that regard.    I understand Pope John Paul’s teaching that it shouldn’t be used and should be rare because Of todays penal systems.  But his leaving it to rare cases always kept that church teaching intact.  

Now Francis seems to take away that prolife connection.    He seems to support an emotional response rather than a reasonable response.  

This is the essence of what troubles me and I can’t wrap my head around it.  Which is why I wonder if self defense is no longer acceptable?  I mean if the death penalty, which used to be acceptable as a means Of self defense in the teachings of the Church,  is now a mortal sin... what makes carrying a gun and using that gun if necessary for self defense, any different?  This is what Francis words have done.  It’s not simply can we put to death prisoners, it takes into account can we put anyone to death under any circumstance.  

And that’s the crux of this.  We devout Catholic buttercups want to follow our Pope, but we need a better explanation as to how this new teaching should be implemented and if it’s even a solid, speaking-from-the-chair-of-st Peter proclamation of a new mortal sin...  

What's wrong with the statement, specifically?  That Catholics are saying that, or that it bothers me?  Some Catholics are saying that.  However, by your first paragraph you seem to get to a very important issue that I was trying to bring up.  There is a very pro-life side to the death penalty.  That's what I was saying...

We're in agreement on that, I think.

On the other issue, of whether or not something might be a mortal sin, I can see no room for a 'sentence' of a lay person committing a mortal sin on the basis of self-defense.  For the pope to say that killing someone in self-defense is a mortal sin would not just be a 'new' moral teaching, it would change an existing one, and that's not possible, and should be rejected by all Catholics.

[fides' Jack]

On 8/4/2018 at 3:41 AM, Josh said:

Didn't know you were a victim. Sincere prayers and very sorry that happened to you. My gut instinct is pedophiles and murderers should be put to death. But I don't want to be a cafeteria Catholic so I have to accept the teaching being put forward.

It's interesting all the Catholics who accuse others of being cafeteria Catholics are the ones guilty now. But apparently it's okay when they're the ones picking and choosing what to accept and ignore.

Doctrine delvolpes. Popes used to own slaves and the Church said it was fine. Now it's not. Slavery is evil. Nomatter how many times it was approved and praised in the Bible. Or by the Catholic Church.

I know people are scared gay marriage will be next. I don't think that would ever happen. The Holy Spirit wouldn't allow it. Although The Holy Spirit did allow this so either you accept the teaching or become a cafeteria Catholic.

Unless you are saying the Church is now in Schism and Francis is an Anti-Pope. A lot of the Greatest Catholics Of All Time have been saying that for awhile or deeply insinuating it without completely coming out and saying it.

As far as all the sexual abuse and cover ups the past 3 popes have been huge let downs on that. Pretty sad. Not judging them cause the measurement I weigh out will be returned to me. But yeah pedapholies and all that is messed up. I agree with you that it seems just they be put to death. But if I'm not going to accept all the Church's teachings I won't be Catholic. I'm trash and a gigantic sinner but I accept all the Church's teachings. Including the death penalty one now. A cafeteria Catholic I am not.

The Church would not be in schism.  A group or individual can be in schism - including a pope.  But the Church itself can't be in schism.

Doctrine absolutely develops.  The slavery argument is really weak, though.  I've read about the slaves those popes had, and if anything, they were closer to indentured servants, and not slaves the way Americans think of them.  They were paid, they had rights, they had their own property.  It was not the same thing.  They may have been treated badly, I don't know. 

The point is that cafeteria Catholics don't know what is and is not Church teaching.  A Catholic who in good conscience is opposed to this opinion is not 'picking and choosing' what to believe.  

[fides' Jack]

On 8/3/2018 at 6:33 AM, dominicansoul said:

And that’s the crux of this.  We devout Catholic buttercups want to follow our Pope, but we need a better explanation as to how this new teaching should be implemented and if it’s even a solid, speaking-from-the-chair-of-st Peter proclamation of a new mortal sin...  

And that's really the problem.  We're not going to get that.  Not from this pontificate.  We will absolutely see more in-depth examinations of it from both sides of the political spectrum.  But if we know anything about Pope Francis, we know he is not one for clarification.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

But if we know anything about Pope Francis, we know he is not one for clarification.

And if we know anything about you we know 1.) You reject the Catechism 2.) Defend slavery  3.) Say all rap and hip-hop is distasteful and you know it won't be in Heaven because God told you through your Anointed Commonsense.

You should start a Church.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Guest

[KnightofChrist]

The Church doesn't change her teachings. Or did not until now. Before this announcement there was room for disagreement on Capital punishment, Pope Benedict XVI said so anyway. Now, in just a few days I'm not really Catholic anymore for believing what the Church previously taught, by Trent, previous Popes, Doctors, Saint etc that "the PRIMARY effect of punishment is to redress the disorder caused by the offense" and that safety of society was secondary and that teaching isn't Catholic anymore. I still believe the primary effect of capital punishment is to redress (revenge by the lawful state) the disorder caused by the offense (ie rape/murder). I'm sorry I'm not Catholic enough for some of you guys, and that my belief in what the Church always taught, until now at least, is just my opinion. This is why I don't post here much, you guys can be against capital punishment but I'm not going to say you're a fake Catholic for doing so. You can hold that belief and be a good Catholic. 

[Guest]

What I think could be perhaps also discussed is if our penal system can offer punishment and possibility of rehabilitation to perpetrators of serious criminal offences........and should it offer both i.e. is this what our penal systems are set up to achieve.  As KNight of Christ has proposed, is it about "revenge by the lawful state" ?

I do think that in some cases and for the protection of society and the common good, some might be deemed unable to be released back into society and punishment for the crime must be life imprisonment without parole.

 

Pope Francis is not propopsing something new:

What Saint Pope John Paul II had to state:  http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae.html

THERE IS A growing tendency, both in the church and in civil society, to demand that it (the death penalty) be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God's plan for man and society. The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is "to redress the disorder caused by the offence". Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfils the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people's safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated.

"It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organisation of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.  (My comment:  JPII proposed the latter in 1995)

"In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: "If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person".

- Pope John Paul II, Evangelium vitae

Edited August 7, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

I sometimes wonder if some are looking for another rationalisation/excuse why they are no longer Catholics.  Some are very ready to listen to where Pope Francis is wrong, very wrong, changing Catholic Teaching - and yet absoltuely refuse to listen to a contrary point of view and related sound reasons for same.

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

The Church doesn't change her teachings. Or did not until now. Before this announcement there was room for disagreement on Capital punishment, Pope Benedict XVI said so anyway. 

"Pope Benedict 30 November 2011 "Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday offered his support to a major international meeting underway this week through the sponsorship of the Sant’Egidio Community aimed at eliminating capital punishment.

"I greet the distinguished delegations from various countries taking part in the meeting promoted by the Community of Sant’Egidio on the theme: No Justice without Life. I express my hope that your deliberations will encourage the political and legislative initiatives being promoted in a growing number of countries to eliminate the death penalty and to continue the substantive progress made in conforming penal law both to the human dignity of prisoners and the effective maintenance of public order. (Radio Vatican) http://archive.santegidio.org/pageID/64/langID/ro/itemID/8704/.html

[KnightofChrist]

Again, Pope John Paul II was clearly concerned with secondary reasons of capital punishment, public safety, he is silent and does not address the primary effect of capital punishment which is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. I don't believe people should be executed based on mistly on secondary justifications. But primarily on the actual offense.  Punishing someone mostly for crimes they MAY commit rather than primarily for crimes committed is to me unjust.

The state acts as a revenger on behalf of God, God has given the State the power of the sword, to punish and even put to death evil doers. This is part of the Deposit of Faith. No one, save God Himself, can change it. Until He comes again and does so I will believe the state can put evil doers to death, justly, primarily for the crimes committed because that is what the Church has always taught. 

 

Romans 13

1LET every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. 2Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4For he is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.

[Guest]

We now have three popes (our current pope and consecutive past two popes - one a saint in a papal encyclical) each speaking against  capital punishment.

Therefore, to some, The Church on capital punishment, apparently, has been going off the rails for at least the past six years and before the papacy of Pope Francis.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

. I don't believe people should be executed based on mistly on secondary justifications. But primarily on the actual offense.  Punishing someone mostly for crimes they MAY commit rather than primarily for crimes committed is to me unjust.

Life imprisonment without parole would be discerned by the state as necessary for the protection of society as well as punishment for the crime committed.  It would also protect the human dignity of the convicted person by abolishing the death penalty.  As Popes JPII in Evangelium Vitae stated in 1995 and Pope Benedict stated in 2011 - quote with references in my previous posts.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[KnightofChrist]

5 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Life imprisonment without parole would be discerned by the state as necessary for the protection of society as well as punishment for the crime committed.  It would also protect the human dignity of the convicted person by abolishing the death penalty.  As Popes JPII in Evangelium Vitae stated in 1995 and Pope Benedict stated in 2011 - quote with references in my previous posts.

 

 

Life in prison is not equal punishment to all forms of murder. Murder and rape of children would be such an example, murder of pregnant women, or extremely violent demonic ritual murders could also be examples where life in prison is in no way equal to the crime(s) committed and would not redress the disorder caused by the offensive. St. Paul's divinely inspired teaching on the state's God given appointment to execute wrath upon the wicked  will stand until the end of time. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Life in prison is not equal punishment to all forms of murder. Murder and rape of children would be such an example, murder of pregnant women, or extremely violent demonic ritual murders could also be examples where life in prison is in no way equal to the crime(s) committed and would not redress the disorder caused by the offensive. St. Paul's divinely inspired teaching on the state's God given appointment to execute wrath upon the wicked  will stand until the end of time. 

 Even human authority established by God is subject to God's Commandments.  In the very same Chapter of Corinthians you have quoted (i.e. Chapter 13):

Quote

"The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."

Where is it stated that the punishment must be equal to the crime.  For the crimes you have mentioned, I don't think even death is equal to the crime.

John Chapter 13: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”  

Luke Chapter 6  “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you". ...................................“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them."

Jesus is asked "Who is my neighbour" and relates the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke Ch10)  It concludes:

Quote

 

 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[KnightofChrist]

That the punishment should fit the crime is retributive justice. This is found is in many places in Catholic teaching, it is even found in the CCC which I've quoted repeatedly. "The primary effect of punishment is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. " 

 

This is also the teaching of the Council and Catechism of Trent which does not stop being Catholic teaching just because of a passage of time. Catholic means universal, universal in time and location. 

" Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment- is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord."

"The murderer is the worst enemy of his species, and consequently of nature. To the utmost of his power he destroys the universal work of God by the destruction of man, since God declares that He created all things for man's sake. Nay, as it is forbidden in Genesis to take human life, because God created man to his own image and likeness, he who makes away with God's image offers great injury to God, and almost seems to lay violent hands on God Himself !"

=====

"If the Pope were to deny that the death penalty could be an exercise of retributive justice, he would be overthrowing the tradition of two millennia of Catholic thought, denying the teaching of several previous popes, and contradicting the teaching of Scripture." — Avery Cardinal Dulles

[Guest]

I am an Australian and we have abolished the death penalty. 

USCCB (United States Catholic Conference of Bishops) http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/death-penalty-capital-punishment/catholic-campaign-to-end-the-use-of-the-death-penalty.cfm

Plenty of statements and information on the above link from the US Conference of Bishops, including:

Quote

The death penalty arouses deep passions and strong convictions. People of goodwill disagree. In these reflections, we offer neither judgment nor condemnation but instead encourage engagement and dialogue, which we hope may lead to re-examination and conversion. Our goal is not just to proclaim a position, but to persuade Catholics and others to join us in working to end the use of the death penalty. We seek to help build a culture of life in which our nation will no longer try to teach that killing is wrong by killing those who kill.
—USCCB, A Culture of Life and the Penalty of Death

When Cain killed Abel, God did not destroy Cain - rather God sent him into exile (see link above).  

Peace and Joy

Australian Catholic Bishops Conference (ACBC)

http://mediablog.catholic.org.au/bishops-conference-supports-efforts-to-abolish-the-death-penalty-worldwide/

https://www.catholic.org.au/acbc-media/downloads/public-policy/papers/1758-1-october-2015-australia-s-advocacy-for-the-abolition-of-the-death-penalty/file

Edited August 7, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[KnightofChrist]

None of this over rules, nor could, Saint Paul, or the two millennia of Catholic teaching. I  will continue to believe the unchanging teaching of the Church on the subject of capital punishment. That it is in fact just in any age and paramount obedience to the fifth commandment.

Dominus vobiscum