Pope Declares Death Penalty Inadmissible in All Cases

[Guest]

Look at all the Cafeteria Catholics.

[catholicinsd]

It's quite amazing to all the "Catholics," who in addition to defying the Supreme Pontiff, are advocating for killing people.

[Guest]

"True Dogmatic Progress" https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=38004

Catechism’s revision is instance of ‘true dogmatic progress,’ Vatican prelate says

[Peace]

6 hours ago, Anomaly said:

Sheesh, you Catholics need to relax a bit.  The Church doesn’t have to be perfect in everything, just perfection in fundamental Dogma. If you’re good with the Apostles’ Creed, the Sacraments, and particularly the Eucharist, you’re good to go. After that, respectfully disagree if you really, really, seriously pondered on the matter.  It will all work out in time.  

You amuse me. We do not come over to your house and tell you how to be a proper atheist do we?

[Peace]

13 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

Another thing that bothers me is how Catholics in recent times have said you can’t be prolife and pro death penalty.  

 "Pro-life" is striving to keep a person alive. "Pro-death" is striving to put a person to death. I don't think it's that complicated of an argument.

The only situation where killing someone could be considered "pro-life" is when killing the person is absolutely necessary to prevent him from harming other innocent people. But once a person has been arrested by the police, that should never be necessary given the technology we have today.

13 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I think the generations after Vatican II have been the most ignorant of Church teaching.  The church has long tied death penalty with the value of human life, ie self defense.  So death penalty is actually prolife in that regard.    I understand Pope John Paul’s teaching that it shouldn’t be used and should be rare because Of todays penal systems.  But his leaving it to rare cases always kept that church teaching intact.  

Now Francis seems to take away that prolife connection.    He seems to support an emotional response rather than a reasonable response.  

Let's keep it real here. Pope Francis is much more an expert on the historic teaching of the Church than you and I will ever be. And it seems that the majority of the living bishops around the globe are with him, when it comes to the death penalty. So exactly why is it that we should disregard all of these men who have formally studied Catholic theology for decades, and who have the Holy Orders, and follow the opinion of a random person on the internet who favors the death penalty?

It seems to me that your response is the emotional one. Look. Let's keep it real. We grew up in the USA. We have a culture that favors the death penalty, and that clouds our judgment in this area.

13 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I mean if the death penalty, which used to be acceptable as a means Of self defense in the teachings of the Church,  is now a mortal sin... what makes carrying a gun and using that gun if necessary for self defense, any different?  This is what Francis words have done.  It’s not simply can we put to death prisoners, it takes into account can we put anyone to death under any circumstance.  

This type of argument really reminds me of the kinds of arguments that the pro-choice folks make. They take an extremely rare situation (abortion necessary to save the life of the mother), and then base their arguments on that.

If someone tries to kill you or cause you grievous bodily injury, of course you have the right to defend yourself. But the situations where it is truly necessary to put a prisoner to death, in order to prevent him from causing harm to others, are extremely rare. You get sent to one of these Supermax prisons that we have nowadays, forget about all of that.

13 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

And that’s the crux of this.  We devout Catholic buttercups want to follow our Pope, but we need a better explanation as to how this new teaching should be implemented and if it’s even a solid, speaking-from-the-chair-of-st Peter proclamation of a new mortal sin...  

I think it is rather simple. Strive for the abolition of the death penalty. Not exactly the most popular thing to do in Texas, granted. . .

[Anomaly]

39 minutes ago, Peace said:

You amuse me. We do not come over to your house and tell you how to be a proper atheist do we?

You’re  personally invited to come on over for a beer and chat, provided you respect atheism and like most atheists as much as I respect Catholicism and like most Catholics. 

[Peace]

23 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

You’re  personally invited to come on over for a beer and chat, provided you respect atheism and like most atheists as much as I respect Catholicism and like most Catholics. 

What you wrote was not respect. It was condescension.

[KnightofChrist]

It remains perfectly moral and in line with the Scared Scripture and Sacred Tradition to execute murderers and even pedophiles.  Doctrine cannot charge nor can it develop to the point it contradicts what was previously taught. It remains a fact of the Deposit of Faith the state has the right of the sword to punish evil doers. 

4 hours ago, Peace said:

 "Pro-life" is striving to keep a person alive. "Pro-death" is striving to put a person to death. I don't think it's that complicated of an argument.

The only situation where killing someone could be considered "pro-life" is when killing the person is absolutely necessary to prevent him from harming other innocent people. But once a person has been arrested by the police, that should never be necessary given the technology we have today.

It is pro-life to execute murderers as that is the only punishment equal to the innocent life stolen. No amount of time in any prison is equal to the innocent taken. A man that rapes and murders children could justly be executed based primarily, even solely, on the crime committed even without being any danger to society in future. 

On 8/2/2018 at 1:15 PM, dUSt said:

I don't understand how anyone could argue this is NOT infallible. All of the conditions are met--he even changed the catechism. 

So, suck it up it up buttercups. The death penalty is now inadmissible. If you can't handle it, maybe think twice about receiving communion.

Pope Francis should be far more concerned with the pedophile crisis in the Church than saving the lives of wicked men who've deprived others of their lives. I will continue to believe as the Church has always taught, as part of the Deposit of Faith, that there are times when it is just to put wicked men to death for their crimes.

[KnightofChrist]

And yes if anyone is wondering I do believe that former Cardinal McCarrick should be arrested and if found guilty of crimes of pedophilia be hung by the neck until dead. Child rape by clergy has gone on far enough. As a victim of that vile crime I find Pope Francis inaction even easily mistakenable enabling of these pedo predators bothbsick and sad.

[Ash Wednesday]

Phatmass barbecue at Anomaly's 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

And yes if anyone is wondering I do believe that former Cardinal McCarrick should be arrested and if found guilty of crimes of pedophilia be hung by the neck until dead. Child rape by clergy has gone on far enough. As a victim of that vile crime I find Pope Francis inaction even easily mistakenable enabling of these pedo predators bothbsick and sad.

Didn't know you were a victim. Sincere prayers and very sorry that happened to you. My gut instinct is pedophiles and murderers should be put to death. But I don't want to be a cafeteria Catholic so I have to accept the teaching being put forward.

It's interesting all the Catholics who accuse others of being cafeteria Catholics are the ones guilty now. But apparently it's okay when they're the ones picking and choosing what to accept and ignore.

Doctrine delvolpes. Popes used to own slaves and the Church said it was fine. Now it's not. Slavery is evil. Nomatter how many times it was approved and praised in the Bible. Or by the Catholic Church.

I know people are scared gay marriage will be next. I don't think that would ever happen. The Holy Spirit wouldn't allow it. Although The Holy Spirit did allow this so either you accept the teaching or become a cafeteria Catholic.

Unless you are saying the Church is now in Schism and Francis is an Anti-Pope. A lot of the Greatest Catholics Of All Time have been saying that for awhile or deeply insinuating it without completely coming out and saying it.

As far as all the sexual abuse and cover ups the past 3 popes have been huge let downs on that. Pretty sad. Not judging them cause the measurement I weigh out will be returned to me. But yeah pedapholies and all that is messed up. I agree with you that it seems just they be put to death. But if I'm not going to accept all the Church's teachings I won't be Catholic. I'm trash and a gigantic sinner but I accept all the Church's teachings. Including the death penalty one now. A cafeteria Catholic I am not.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Guest

[little2add]

On 8/2/2018 at 8:24 PM, BarbaraTherese said:

If I am for life, then it has to be for the whole of life.  Also, we are called to forgive, definitely not to kill.

It began with a simple boycott of Jewish shops and ended in the gas chambers at Auschwitz as Adolf Hitler and his Nazi followers attempted to exterminate the entire Jewish population of Europe.

 killing to stop the above may be an exception to the rule. 

[linate]

Quote

https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/n013rp_DeathPenalty_Popes.htm

Innocent I

The first Pope to take a stand in favor of the death penalty was Innocent I in the year 405. In response to a query from the Bishop of Toulouse, Pope Innocent I based his position on Paul’s Letter to the Romans. He wrote: 

It must be remembered that power was granted by God [to the magistrates], and to avenge crime by the sword was permitted. He who carries out this vengeance is God’s minister (Rm 13:1-4). Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority. 

 

 

(Innocent 1, Epist. 6, C. 3. 8, ad Exsuperium, Episcopum Tolosanum,
20 February 405, PL 20,495)

 

 

Innocent III

The secular power can without mortal sin carry out a sentence of death, provided it proceeds in imposing the penalty not from hatred but with judgment, not carelessly but with due solicitude. 

 

 

(Innocent III, DS 795/425)

 

Pius XII

Even in the case of the death penalty the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. Rather public authority limits itself to depriving the offender of the good of life in expiation for his guilt, after he, through his crime, deprived himself of his own right to life. 

 

 

(Pius XII, Address to the First International Congress of Histopathology 
of the Nervous System, 14 September 1952, XIV, 328)

 

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent

The power of life and death is permitted to certain civil magistrates because theirs is the responsibility under law to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. Far from being guilty of breaking this commandment [Thy shall not kill], such an execution of justice is precisely an act of obedience to it. For the purpose of the law is to protect and foster human life. This purpose is fulfilled when the legitimate authority of the State is exercised by taking the guilty lives of those who have taken innocent lives. 

In the Psalms we find a vindication of this right: “Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land, cutting off all evildoers from the city of the Lord” (Ps. 101:8). 

 

 

(Roman Catechism of the Council of Tre

 

[dominicansoul]

6 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

It remains perfectly moral and in line with the Scared Scripture and Sacred Tradition to execute murderers and even pedophiles.  Doctrine cannot charge nor can it develop to the point it contradicts what was previously taught. It remains a fact of the Deposit of Faith the state has the right of the sword to punish evil doers. 

It is pro-life to execute murderers as that is the only punishment equal to the innocent life stolen. No amount of time in any prison is equal to the innocent taken. A man that rapes and murders children could justly be executed based primarily, even solely, on the crime committed even without being any danger to society in future. 

Pope Francis should be far more concerned with the pedophile crisis in the Church than saving the lives of wicked men who've deprived others of their lives. I will continue to believe as the Church has always taught, as part of the Deposit of Faith, that there are times when it is just to put wicked men to death for their crimes.

I’ve been reading Peters, watching EWTN, listening to some of my Dominican family. So far no one has said this was a change in the teaching, but more of Francis’ opinion and has no bearing as “mortal sin.”

i don’t believe we need the death penalty.  I never said i supported it, I have always held the opinion not to kill criminals.  But I totally agreed and thought it wise that the Church kept it an option “just in case.” 

 

 I think our country has created an expansive and expensive prison system to keep the murdering marauders securely away from us.  I feel sorry for those countries who have no way to keep their murderers in check.  

I guess we Let the criminals have their way.  Our future is paradise...  

Edited August 4, 2018 by dominicansoul

[Anomaly]

12 hours ago, Peace said:

What you wrote was not respect. It was condescension.

Maybe to you it came off that way, but not my intention.  It may be because you find my atheism so offensive.  I can appreciate your perspective, and apologize.  

But my intent was to point out my opinion that it is not necessary or fair to paint the new verbiage as such a major issue, or cause to become upset with Catholicism or the Pope (while making sure my opinion is not as a fellow Catholic.).  

Although it may be only an prudential opinion of the Pope and Clergy, it is a big deal to choose to actively disagree.  Pretty much I’m in agreement with your response to domincansoul above.