Ash Wednesday Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 On 7/7/2018 at 1:09 AM, GreenScapularedHuman said: This is a very major reason why I opted to not respond to you before... but after seeing that Phatmass has a rather entrenched and isolated community of very far right thinking individuals... I thought maybe I should be a little more tolerant and more flexible because I am dealing with people who spend their days so far from the normal world or America that they likely don't know how to interact well and productively... Making these kinds of assumptions and having a condescending attitude towards people on here is certainly not going to get you anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenScapularedHuman Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Ash Wednesday said: Making these kinds of assumptions and having a condescending attitude towards people on here is certainly not going to get you anywhere. Its not an assumption... From the wild support and defense for Trump... (consisting of less than 10-30% of the American population) From the belief that abortion is always wrong and should always be illegal (consisting of less than 10-30% of the American population). From being ardently religious with these kinda of sentiments also slides one into the pretty far right encampment... While I assume not everyone here meets this... but just watching and reading what people post, here and elsewhere, that is a pretty accurate assessment. I think I am the most liberal person here by more than just a little... and its not because I am very liberal or anything like that. BUT... Tell me what is wrong with me saying I should be MORE TOLERANT and MORE FLEXIBLE? Also try to give other members who I wrote off as too far out there another chance... Is that bad? I thought that was kinda the whole message of Christianity? And condescending? After on another topic you okayed someone shouting murder and rape at me because I dont agree with their rather far-right views on abortion... and a death threat for the same reason... and in this topic someone who wants to pretend that I am somehow being dishonest just a sore loser because they are lying about who won the 2016 popular vote? Is being condescending to you someone disagreeing and not coddling your opinions? There is a word for that... snowflake. But if I get no where at all here with anyone... I wouldn't care a little bit... I have no agenda... and honestly I am not even so sure if I will be staying here... The moderating okaying rape and murder and death threats shouted at me really makes me question the basic decency and credibility of said community standards. Edited July 9, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 On 7/5/2018 at 8:43 PM, GreenScapularedHuman said: It is very likely why Trump has Melania visiting the facilities, the premier best of he best of the facilities, to avoid images like this to get out: Which was taken by a reporter using a telescopic camera showing detainees in a tent city standing out in the summer's heat unshaded. We know that ICE has set up tent ciites even for children and even infants since ICE facility space has ran out under Trump's new policy. So it is pretty fair to assume that very similar facilities as seen in this photo is where some children and infants are finding themselves... Its not hard to imagine why the Trump administration wants that kept out of the public eye... Weird - it also shows staff standing out in the summer's heat. In addition, I don't see any women or children detainees in that line. It also, interestingly, doesn't include any kind of information detailing how long they were out there. The only indication might be that the female staff member at the front of the line might be checking her watch, which could mean anything. I'm just curious, what is this photo trying to prove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 21 minutes ago, GreenScapularedHuman said: Its not an assumption... From the wild support and defense for Trump... (consisting of less than 10-30% of the American population) From the belief that abortion is always wrong and should always be illegal (consisting of less than 10-30% of the American population). From being ardently religious with these kinda of sentiments also slides one into the pretty far right encampment... While I assume not everyone here meets this... but just watching and reading what people post, here and elsewhere, that is a pretty accurate assessment. [...] Is being condescending to you someone disagreeing and not coddling your opinions? There is a word for that... snowflake. I really don't know where you get these numbers. I would say the wild support for Trump is probably less than 5%. Defense for Trump is probably closer to 45% or 50% - just based on the fact that he was voted President. I voted for him, and I'd defend him in an argument, but I also despise the man. He's disgusting. Should someone like him be president? Probably not. He's the president we need, not the one we deserve. I'll be voting for him again in 2020. Quote Tell me what is wrong with me saying I should be MORE TOLERANT and MORE FLEXIBLE? Also try to give other members who I wrote off as too far out there another chance... Is that bad? I thought that was kinda the whole message of Christianity? And condescending? No, that's not the message of Christianity. That's a popular misconception. The message of Christianity is to try to get people into Heaven, by telling them the truth: if they don't love God and live the way they should, they will go to Hell. (Most people on this site would disagree with that statement, by the way) Quote I think I am the most liberal person here by more than just a little... and its not because I am very liberal or anything like that. No, I'd say of the non-Catholics I've seen here, you're nowhere near the most liberal, politically. I would hope that Catholics would tend to be on the right politically, but I've also seen many people professing to be Catholic here take some of the same stances you have. Quote After on another topic you okayed someone shouting murder and rape at me because I dont agree with their rather far-right views on abortion... and a death threat for the same reason... and in this topic someone who wants to pretend that I am somehow being dishonest just a sore loser because they are lying about who won the 2016 popular vote? But if I get no where at all here with anyone... I wouldn't care a little bit... I have no agenda... and honestly I am not even so sure if I will be staying here... The moderating okaying rape and murder and death threats shouted at me really makes me question the basic decency and credibility of said community standards. I really, really doubt anyone here condoned shouting murder and rape. Please give a link - I really want to read where that accusation is coming from. If people here are doing that, dUSt would absolutely have their accounts suspended in a heartbeat. If anything, I think the moderation here is too strict - which is absolutely their right to be. By the way, the only people I've seen shouting those kinds of things come from the far-left (including mass media, educational systems, Hollywood, Antifa, and supporters of these organizations). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, GreenScapularedHuman said: From the wild support and defense for Trump... (consisting of most of the American population) fixed it except of democrats (leadership) two wrongs dont make a right Edited July 9, 2018 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenScapularedHuman Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 30 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: Weird - it also shows staff standing out in the summer's heat. In addition, I don't see any women or children detainees in that line. It also, interestingly, doesn't include any kind of information detailing how long they were out there. The only indication might be that the female staff member at the front of the line might be checking her watch, which could mean anything. I'm just curious, what is this photo trying to prove? The amount of time in the heat or sun isn't really all that relevant... and the guards and/or staff are adults who chose to be there... and these minors because they are not being held at an actual ice detention facility very likely are not even charged they are just being held there against their will. This is just a wild guess jack... but you could literally of just read what I wrote below it... Quote Which was taken by a reporter using a telescopic camera showing detainees in a tent city standing out in the summer's heat unshaded. We know that ICE has set up tent cities even for children and even infants since ICE facility space has ran out under Trump's new policy. So it is pretty fair to assume that very similar facilities as seen in this photo is where some children and infants are finding themselves... Its not hard to imagine why the Trump administration wants that kept out of the public eye... Which is kinda scary because you literally had that in your reply to me... so... yeah. Also even more scary that I need to explain the whole 'they are minors detained against their will without charges' aspect of this... 14 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: I really don't know where you get these numbers. I would say the wild support for Trump is probably less than 5%. Defense for Trump is probably closer to 45% or 50% - just based on the fact that he was voted President. I voted for him, and I'd defend him in an argument, but I also despise the man. He's disgusting. Should someone like him be president? Probably not. He's the president we need, not the one we deserve. I'll be voting for him again in 2020. Though a bit dated, as in a few months, the general trend holds up: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/11/americans-love-the-economy--but-most-still-dont-like-trump.html The American public thinks Trump is a liar (<63%) and a bad leader (>59%), despite that approval for Trump still hangs around the 30-40% range. That is not favorable... And it is this very loyalist ~30% of Trump supporters who have decided not to abandon Trump no matter what that Trump relies and panders to rather heavily... and they are pretty far right wing to say the very least. But even among these forever-trumpers, I know more than a few, including a few in my own family... they don't like Trump... they see Trump as a means to an end... either as exacting revenge or trying to push a policy proposal that they think someone would have to be Donald Trump to push through to the end. But you need to recall about Trump being selected for President... he didn't win the election... he lost by a lot... he is President due to the electoral college. 25 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: No, that's not the message of Christianity. That's a popular misconception. The message of Christianity is to try to get people into Heaven, by telling them the truth: if they don't love God and live the way they should, they will go to Hell. (Most people on this site would disagree with that statement, by the way)s media, educational systems, Hollywood, Antifa, and supporters of these organizations). Could you show me where that is in the bible by chance? I must of missed that. Quote If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Or as you seem to think... 'faith is the most important, 1st Corinthians can smell of elderberries it!' 31 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: (Most people on this site would disagree with that statement, by the way) In a topic not so long ago about hell, in reference to Pope Francis allegedly proposing that there is no hell but only souls who cease to exist, I put forward my own opinion of while I don't know of any god or hell, I think that based on my reading I think that a more reasonable read would be is that hell if it exists is not eternal and is not as torturous as middle age art would seem to suggest. I would be inclined to think in fact that hell is not a place of torment at all but a place of correction, even if there is no promise of entry to heaven for those souls... If you want to hop over to that discussion and look at it you are more than welcome. But I saw not a single voice even remotely come close to agreement with me on this subject. I'm not upset by it. I understand that belief in an eternal and stupidly evil torment of hell is a pretty mainstay of Christian belief and imagining. I mean Christianity really really won the arms race among religions for the most abjectly terrible afterlife. The irony is that its by a supposedly benevolent and loving god... 36 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: No, I'd say of the non-Catholics I've seen here, you're nowhere near the most liberal, politically. I would hope that Catholics would tend to be on the right politically, but I've also seen many people professing to be Catholic here take some of the same stances you have. Would you mind pointing to one? Because I have not seen them even a little bit... In another topic for just pointing out that democracy, fair rule of law, civil rights, and a secular government are good things... I got rape and murder and a death threat shouted at me... I really cannot wrap my head around how easily that was/is tolerated under any circumstance. It just shows me how messed up the community standards are... and even more messed up that people are a little worried that I am being not so very nice in my tone. There is a term for that too... its called tone policing and it is also a logic fallacy. 39 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: I really, really doubt anyone here condoned shouting murder and rape. Please give a link - I really want to read where that accusation is coming from. If people here are doing that, dUSt would absolutely have their accounts suspended in a heartbeat. If anything, I think the moderation here is too strict - which is absolutely their right to be. Just go over to the Justice Kennedy retirement thread. In it I was repeatedly told I was supporting rape and murder because I don't agree that abortion should be banned. To put it very mildly... the amount of Americans who support a total ban on abortion is rather low... but I can at least respect the people and their views for wanting a total ban on abortion. I don't tell them that they are wanting to shove vaginal ultrasounds here and there or telling them that they just want to see pregnant mothers who are disproportionately poor to die due to lack of proper health care in complicated pregnancies. That wouldn't be fair. I would like to think no one wants to see that... I would like to. But not only was this repeated a few times... it was doubled and tripled down upon as a sound argument. Then I got asked why they couldn't come kill me for no reason... then laughably they followed up with that I didn't answer their question despite saying a valid law prohibited it and that they conceded there was no reason. So yeah... thats taking what could be a reasonable conversation about something that doesn't need to be overly emotional, as it already is overly emotional, and just shouting rape and murder in order to bully your way through it... and then when that didn't work they did a little death threat. Fun. 43 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: By the way, the only people I've seen shouting those kinds of things come from the far-left (including mass media, educational systems, Hollywood, Antifa, and supporters of these organizations). Shouting murder and rape? Show me? Because I haven't heard it... Really. Show me. Also I really love how we are turning this topic into about me... when I spent almost all of this topic trying to stay on the issue of a wall... or at least immigration issues... And just in case I do decide to go... the wall isnt ever going to be built... and roe v wade isn't ever going to be overturned... thats just reality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, GreenScapularedHuman said: Its not an assumption... From the wild support and defense for Trump... (consisting of less than 10-30% of the American population) From the belief that abortion is always wrong and should always be illegal (consisting of less than 10-30% of the American population). From being ardently religious with these kinda of sentiments also slides one into the pretty far right encampment... While I assume not everyone here meets this... but just watching and reading what people post, here and elsewhere, that is a pretty accurate assessment. I think I am the most liberal person here by more than just a little... and its not because I am very liberal or anything like that. BUT... Tell me what is wrong with me saying I should be MORE TOLERANT and MORE FLEXIBLE? Also try to give other members who I wrote off as too far out there another chance... Is that bad? I thought that was kinda the whole message of Christianity? And condescending? After on another topic you okayed someone shouting murder and rape at me because I dont agree with their rather far-right views on abortion... and a death threat for the same reason... and in this topic someone who wants to pretend that I am somehow being dishonest just a sore loser because they are lying about who won the 2016 popular vote? Is being condescending to you someone disagreeing and not coddling your opinions? There is a word for that... snowflake. But if I get no where at all here with anyone... I wouldn't care a little bit... I have no agenda... and honestly I am not even so sure if I will be staying here... The moderating okaying rape and murder and death threats shouted at me really makes me question the basic decency and credibility of said community standards. Right, I explained my position on the rhetorical question in the last thread, and instead of just accepting it as my opinion, you are taking your own opinion and stating it as fact. Your tone is incredibly disrespectful. Saying that you are "dealing with people who spend their days so far from the normal world or America that they likely don't know how to interact well and productively" IS presumptuous and condescending and has no basis whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenScapularedHuman Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 49 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said: Right, I explained my position on the rhetorical question in the last thread, and instead of just accepting it as my opinion, you are taking your own opinion and stating it as fact. Your tone is incredibly disrespectful. Saying that you are "dealing with people who spend their days so far from the normal world or America that they likely don't know how to interact well and productively" IS presumptuous and condescending and has no basis whatsoever. Its not a personal opinion... it was your decision as a community moderator. And no I do not agree with it. And I don't think there is anything unfactual about what I just wrote. At least no more than little2add saying I didn't cite a source when I very clearly did. What I was describing is group-think. And the tone policing you are engaging in and imagining as an 'outsider' as being wrong is pretty reaffirming of that. But I think that is quite telling of how substantive this complaint against me is when the best that can be said is 'you didn't say anything improper... but we don't like your tone... over text that we can't even fathom what the tone is for but we will make some negative guesses anyways!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 28 minutes ago, GreenScapularedHuman said: Its not a personal opinion... it was your decision as a community moderator. Which was based on my opinion on whether or not what was stated was a rhetorical question. Quote But I think that is quite telling of how substantive this complaint against me is when the best that can be said is 'you didn't say anything improper... but we don't like your tone... over text that we can't even fathom what the tone is for but we will make some negative guesses anyways!' You were clearly offended that someone else insinuated that you condone murder and rape, and yet you felt free to turn around and insinuate that I somehow condone death threats. If you honestly believe that people here don't know how to interact well and productively, then I suggest you take a good long look in the mirror because you're no better than they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Not trying to antagonize anyone on this or any other tread, but sometime my twisted sense of humor and sarcasm is perceived that way. Sorry, if I came on too strong. I meant no offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenScapularedHuman Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Ash Wednesday said: turn around and insinuate that I somehow condone death threats. It wasn't an insinuation. They asked why they couldnt come kill me for no reason. And if we want to pretend death threats and my tone (which is almost entirely your imagination it would seem) are on the same level... thats so flooping flooped up I am not sure where to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 It’s like the way back machine got energized by a lightning bolt. I haven’t seen this much emotion posted on PM in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Ash Wednesday said: Which was based on my opinion on whether or not what was stated was a rhetorical question. You were clearly offended that someone else insinuated that you condone murder and rape, and yet you felt free to turn around and insinuate that I somehow condone death threats. If you honestly believe that people here don't know how to interact well and productively, then I suggest you take a good long look in the mirror because you're no better than they are. "Someone else insinuated that you condone murder and rape"... OK, starting to get a clearer picture, here... 44 minutes ago, GreenScapularedHuman said: It wasn't an insinuation. They asked why they couldnt come kill me for no reason. And if we want to pretend death threats and my tone (which is almost entirely your imagination it would seem) are on the same level... thats so flooping flooped up I am not sure where to start. Quote Would you mind pointing to one? Because I have not seen them even a little bit... In another topic for just pointing out that democracy, fair rule of law, civil rights, and a secular government are good things... I got rape and murder and a death threat shouted at me... I really cannot wrap my head around how easily that was/is tolerated under any circumstance. It just shows me how messed up the community standards are... and even more messed up that people are a little worried that I am being not so very nice in my tone. There is a term for that too... its called tone policing and it is also a logic fallacy. Just go over to the Justice Kennedy retirement thread. In it I was repeatedly told I was supporting rape and murder because I don't agree that abortion should be banned. "They asked why they couldn't come kill me for no reason". Yep - now it's starting to make sense. I imagine the conversation went something like this: "Women should have the right to choose whether they can kill their babies or not." "Oh, really? Why can't I go and kill you for no reason?" "AH!! Someone is threatening to kill me!!" Is this about right? It seems to me that nobody was threatening you in the slightest. It's a legitimate argument. I can ask the same thing the other direction: Why aren't you allowed to come and kill me? See, that's not a suicide threat, it's a rhetorical question meant to make you think about what's going on. Also, someone else insinuating that you condone murder and rape is not the same thing as someone else condoning murder and rape, which is what I thought you were saying before. I guess the words you used were, "shouting murder and rape". I really didn't understand what you meant by that. There's nothing wrong with someone saying something like, "people who support abortion are complicit in the murder of babies". This is the position of the Church. To be honest, I really don't care how nice in tone people are around here. And some people try too hard and end up being complicit in wrong-doing themselves. 3 hours ago, GreenScapularedHuman said: The amount of time in the heat or sun isn't really all that relevant... and the guards and/or staff are adults who chose to be there... and these minors because they are not being held at an actual ice detention facility very likely are not even charged they are just being held there against their will. This is just a wild guess jack... but you could literally of just read what I wrote below it... Which is kinda scary because you literally had that in your reply to me... so... yeah. Also even more scary that I need to explain the whole 'they are minors detained against their will without charges' aspect of this... Still not sure what the purpose of it was. If you're trying to get across that they should not have been detained in the first place, then I have to ask, you know what ICE is designed for, right? To find and process ILLEGAL aliens. Just being there is a charge. They are charged with being in the country illegally. They are not citizens and so don't have the right to due-process, anyway (but I imagine most of them are treated better than even a lot of actual citizens are). So... I still don't see your point. They shouldn't be here, period. I don't have a problem with not providing them air conditioning, TV, WIFI, and good times, minors or not. (As long as it doesn't directly jeopardize their well-being) Quote Could you show me where that is in the bible by chance? I must of missed that. Or as you seem to think... 'faith is the most important, 1st Corinthians can smell of elderberries it!' The Bible is 50% of the Divine Revelation. The other 50% is Divine Tradition. Both are necessary, and there are teachings in each that aren't immediately found in the other. Love is the reason why people need to be warned they will go to hell. We wouldn't care if we didn't love them. In fact, love is exactly the reason people need to hear it. I don't see a disconnect between 1st Corinthians and what I'm saying. Quote Though a bit dated, as in a few months, the general trend holds up: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/11/americans-love-the-economy--but-most-still-dont-like-trump.html The American public thinks Trump is a liar (<63%) and a bad leader (>59%), despite that approval for Trump still hangs around the 30-40% range. That is not favorable... And it is this very loyalist ~30% of Trump supporters who have decided not to abandon Trump no matter what that Trump relies and panders to rather heavily... and they are pretty far right wing to say the very least. But even among these forever-trumpers, I know more than a few, including a few in my own family... they don't like Trump... they see Trump as a means to an end... either as exacting revenge or trying to push a policy proposal that they think someone would have to be Donald Trump to push through to the end. But you need to recall about Trump being selected for President... he didn't win the election... he lost by a lot... he is President due to the electoral college. I think forever-trumpers are solely those who think he's, as Ben Shapiro put it, King David. He's not, and very few people support him to that degree, as you've alluded to here. I agree that Trump is a means to an end. But not necessarily a bad means. Terrible character, sure. Should get off his phone, absolutely. But his policies have largely been favorable to good, Christian values (which is why America became the greatest country ever). I support him because of his policy decisions. He lost the popular vote, yes. He still won the presidency. The isn't the first time this has happened, either. As I'm sure you know, Bush lost the popular vote, too. There's a reason the electoral college was setup, and in these cases it was working as intended. As the country gets more and more polarized, I would expect this to happen more often. My hunch is that it will always be in the same direction, too: conservatives losing the popular vote, but winning elections. Quote In a topic not so long ago about hell, in reference to Pope Francis allegedly proposing that there is no hell but only souls who cease to exist, I put forward my own opinion of while I don't know of any god or hell, I think that based on my reading I think that a more reasonable read would be is that hell if it exists is not eternal and is not as torturous as middle age art would seem to suggest. I would be inclined to think in fact that hell is not a place of torment at all but a place of correction, even if there is no promise of entry to heaven for those souls... If you want to hop over to that discussion and look at it you are more than welcome. But I saw not a single voice even remotely come close to agreement with me on this subject. I'm not upset by it. I understand that belief in an eternal and stupidly evil torment of hell is a pretty mainstay of Christian belief and imagining. I mean Christianity really really won the arms race among religions for the most abjectly terrible afterlife. The irony is that its by a supposedly benevolent and loving god... I don't think I fully understand what you're saying. I would expect that no Catholic here would agree with you, because it would be heretical to do so. We can discuss this more, if you'd like. Feel free to message me. I think you don't understand the Christian concept of God, because if you did you wouldn't be making this argument. Perhaps I can try to explain a little better...? Emphasis on try, because I'm sure you've read from smarter people than I on the subject, already. Quote Also I really love how we are turning this topic into about me... when I spent almost all of this topic trying to stay on the issue of a wall... or at least immigration issues... And just in case I do decide to go... the wall isnt ever going to be built... and roe v wade isn't ever going to be overturned... thats just reality... I too doubt the wall will ever be built, or that Roe will be overturned. At least not before this country kills itself. It's nice to dream, though... Quote To put it very mildly... the amount of Americans who support a total ban on abortion is rather low... but I can at least respect the people and their views for wanting a total ban on abortion. I don't tell them that they are wanting to shove vaginal ultrasounds here and there or telling them that they just want to see pregnant mothers who are disproportionately poor to die due to lack of proper health care in complicated pregnancies. That wouldn't be fair. I would like to think no one wants to see that... I would like to. But not only was this repeated a few times... it was doubled and tripled down upon as a sound argument. Then I got asked why they couldn't come kill me for no reason... then laughably they followed up with that I didn't answer their question despite saying a valid law prohibited it and that they conceded there was no reason. So yeah... thats taking what could be a reasonable conversation about something that doesn't need to be overly emotional, as it already is overly emotional, and just shouting rape and murder in order to bully your way through it... and then when that didn't work they did a little death threat. Fun. Asking the question, "Why can't I come kill you?" is not the same as saying, "I'm going to come and kill you". One is a question, the other is a violent threat. Quote Shouting murder and rape? Show me? Because I haven't heard it... Really. Show me. Maybe, if I get time to round up a bunch of sources... It's all over the place, all the time now, though. Not difficult to find. Especially on comment boards and twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 I don't believe a wall will ever be built. I also think a wall is soooooo "dark ages..." I think with today's technology, we should be able to put up an invisible fence of sorts, one that vaporizes trespassers or at least gives them a good zap to prevent them from trying to get in illegally... On 7/7/2018 at 11:56 PM, Maximilianus said: oh, so this isn't about Pink Floyd. Bummer Am I the only person who can't stand that song??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenScapularedHuman Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 37 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: "Someone else insinuated that you condone murder and rape"... OK, starting to get a clearer picture, here... Not really... thats a pretty BS minimization. But considering what I am seeing from you so far... sounds good. "Kids being held against their will in tent cities in violation of international and federal law... but the real question is how long have they been in the sun? I mean I bet not long at all. So its okay." - Jack summarized. 39 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: "They asked why they couldn't come kill me for no reason". Yep - now it's starting to make sense. I imagine the conversation went something like this: "Women should have the right to choose whether they can kill their babies or not." "Oh, really? Why can't I go and kill you for no reason?" "AH!! Someone is threatening to kill me!!" Is this about right? It seems to me that nobody was threatening you in the slightest. It's a legitimate argument. No... its not... because abortion is not murder. You can find texts from quite notable Catholic scholars from the 1700s and 1800s who would agree with that. The whole notion that abortion is murder is not only very recent its also very American. Its also very absurd because even if roe v wade was overturned and even if it was banned again... the law wouldn't be enforced as murder. Its akin to calling war, executions, lethal self-defense, police brutality, gun ownership, poverty, and other matters murder. I mean in the sense that it is killing another human being it might meet that standard. There are also varying degrees of innocence and compulsion like in war civilians are killed (sometimes as unavoidable accidents and sometimes as unavoidable part of war), police violence resulting in death doesn't mean that the other individual had some choice or is guilty in being killed (which disproportionately those shot by police in the US are minorities), and executions while there is due process of law there are more than several (in fact studies suggest at higher rates than non-death penalty cases) exoneration of those executed meaning they were not guilty. So... are these things murder? By this extremely broad definition... yes. So why only call abortion murder? Because its an overly emotional and abusive argument that is highly illogical. And it happens to work on less than intellectually honest suspects such as yourself. So... aside from the fact that it is a completely invalid argument. Even if it was valid... asking if you can kill someone you arguing with for no reason is quite simply a threat. If you cannot accept that... then try this out with a police officer. Try it out on the President of the United States. I bet you aren't dumb enough to try because we both know it is a threat. So don't BS me... shove it back where you got it from... 50 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: I can ask the same thing the other direction: Why aren't you allowed to come and kill me? See, that's not a suicide threat, it's a rhetorical question meant to make you think about what's going on. Yet that wasn't the question asked repeatedly... Jack... this is BS... it was absolutely undoubtedly a threat. It was also undoubtedly a stupid argument from a user who on any other place would be deemed a troll for shouting rape and murder and would be disciplined for a death threat. IF this was in public he would of been arrested. And the 'for no reason' adds to the threat. Because it adds to the sensation that it is a senseless act of violence that is being questioned. It also at no time causes more thought to be emotionally provoked or to be intellectually dishonest. It is akin to if someone here said that you want less abortions so more priests can molest them. That isn't to make you think. Its just offensive. Or... If someone said: "you just oppose abortion because you view women as property unable to make choices about their own bodies, which was the legal justification for abortion laws when they were first enacted in the 1800s in America" Saying you view women as property and unable to make choices on their own doesn't make you think... its a dumb offensive and dishonest argument... Or as you would say 'a fair argument' 57 minutes ago, fides' Jack said: Also, someone else insinuating that you condone murder and rape is not the same thing as someone else condoning murder and rape, which is what I thought you were saying before. I guess the words you used were, "shouting murder and rape". I really didn't understand what you meant by that. There's nothing wrong with someone saying something like, "people who support abortion are complicit in the murder of babies". This is the position of the Church. Its actually not. The Catholic Church does not consider abortion to be murder. Although related to in nominal catholic moral theology it is not murder. And yes it is very wrong to write because it is just factually incorrect. I get that you think that supporting democracy, fair rule of law, secularism, and civil rights means baby killing. But I also get that you are a awful hateful bigot who thinks that charity/love is optional in the Christian faith... Which also makes you quite the hypocrite. 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: Still not sure what the purpose of it was. I'm not surprised... 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: If you're trying to get across that they should not have been detained in the first place, then I have to ask, you know what ICE is designed for, right? To find and process ILLEGAL aliens. Just being there is a charge. They are charged with being in the country illegally. They are not citizens and so don't have the right to due-process, anyway (but I imagine most of them are treated better than even a lot of actual citizens are). The courts have found repeatedly that yes, they have a protected right to due process. That is an absolute abject lie. I mean the Supreme Court found this with very wide margins and it is well established law. There just isn't even an even remotely coherent argument that they don't. I mean read the fourteenth amendment sometime... it spells it out rather clearly. PEOPLE not citizens. But why am I not surprised that you are latching onto the 'not even remotely coherent argument' ship? And it also ignores little things like US law and international treaty that was ratified by the Senate that requires refugees/asylum seekers not to be detained except as very necessary... and it ignores that minors even if only migrants are not to be kept in detention and in fact cannot be kept more than thirty days... THATS LAW. So what you are saying is ICE just gets to ignore the US constitution, the courts, laws, treaties ratified by the senate.... what do you think ICE is exactly? A lawless lynching mob? They aren't supposed to be that! 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: So... I still don't see your point. They shouldn't be here, period. I don't have a problem with not providing them air conditioning, TV, WIFI, and good times, minors or not. (As long as it doesn't directly jeopardize their well-being) Well... the tent cities and the dog kennel-like cages makes you very happy then. And the overwhelming majority of refugees are coming here because they are fleeing violence... they have every right under US and international law to flee here. In fact most of them don't come here. Mexico takes the overwhelming majority of refugees from South America. Those who come up further to America tend to have cause to do so like they fear that the Mexican government is not able to combat the particular group they are running from. 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: The Bible is 50% of the Divine Revelation. The other 50% is Divine Tradition. Both are necessary, and there are teachings in each that aren't immediately found in the other. The bible is the bible. I think you might be talking about the Catholic idea that scripture and tradition go together... and that isn't such an unreasonable proposal... but the whole the bible is half bible and half something else not there... I'm trying to figure out if you are trolling me... can you really be this out there? You said you voted for Trump and think death threats are great... of course you are. 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: Love is the reason why people need to be warned they will go to hell. We wouldn't care if we didn't love them. In fact, love is exactly the reason people need to hear it. I don't see a disconnect between 1st Corinthians and what I'm saying. And thats why Jesus commanded his followers to take vengeance on all those who wronged him and told everyone on the cross that they were going to hell. Oh wait... I swear Phatmass is such a weird place. I want to see what bible is read here. Because it has to be the 'forgot to take meds Jesus'. 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: I think forever-trumpers are solely those who think he's, as Ben Shapiro put it, King David. He's not, and very few people support him to that degree, as you've alluded to here. After all you have seen with Trump so far you are still willing to vote for him... After the overwhelming evidence from every NATO ally intelligence community, including our own, that Trump colluded with the Kremlin/Putin... I am actually willing to go a step further from saying that its not only making you a forever-trumper but makes you a traitor to the Republic even under the US constitutional definition. But that wouldn't be intellectually fair now would it? And why would I be unfair to someone who defends someone shouting rape murder and death threats? 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: I agree that Trump is a means to an end. But not necessarily a bad means. Terrible character, sure. Should get off his phone, absolutely. But his policies have largely been favorable to good, Christian values (which is why America became the greatest country ever). I support him because of his policy decisions. Name one, other than the economy which plenty of economists have said Trump has had little to no impact on, the CBO said his tax plan actually hurt the economy, and plenty of economists have said that the economy is actually on a GDP (PPP) is performing worse than it was under Obama on yearly proportional gains. Which even if you don't accept that (and because its true and from experts I know you won't) Trump's trade war has cancelled almost all stock market gains since he took office and threatens tens to possibly hundreds of thousands of jobs... that will affect ironically mostly Trump supporters. So really... what policy has been good? I just get the feeling that if it was a (D) behind Trump's name you would have blood coming from your eyes and a lit torch and pitchfork already in hand. But because its an (R)... oh... well hes 'fine'... Like Putin... a man who just got more British citizens killed in their home community in England... Trump called him fine... Trump is fine... Vote for him again! 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: He lost the popular vote, yes. He still won the presidency. The isn't the first time this has happened, either. As I'm sure you know, Bush lost the popular vote, too. There's a reason the electoral college was setup, and in these cases it was working as intended. As the country gets more and more polarized, I would expect this to happen more often. My hunch is that it will always be in the same direction, too: conservatives losing the popular vote, but winning elections. The electoral college is not operating the way it was intended. Read the federalist papers. If you read that they make a pretty good case that the electoral college's primary and highest job was to stop idiots like Trump from becoming President. Everything else you might of heard is more or less secondary or possibly even far after the fact argued... and many points are either not true or are not true as currently established. Like it favors small states (not really, and no election in American history has been swung by a small state in the electoral college by more than a few expert opinions)... or that it makes it so that candidates have to visit all the States (it actually does the opposite, it encourages them only to visit swing states)... I could go on and on and on... But the most potent issue is that the electoral college has become anti-democratic and has failed to do the one function it is supposed to do... time for it to go. 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: I don't think I fully understand what you're saying. I would expect that no Catholic here would agree with you, because it would be heretical to do so. We can discuss this more, if you'd like. Feel to message me. I think you don't understand the Christian concept of God, because if you did you wouldn't be making this argument. Perhaps I can try to explain a little better...? Emphasis on try, because I'm sure you've read from smarter people than I on the subject, already. As I discussed in the article there is no definitive doctrine from the Catholic Church on this specific issue, despite there being the somewhat misunderstanding that there is, and it being the normative doctrinal format for catechists that you likely have heard already. More than a few early and prominent church fathers, in fact some of the first to write about hell with any detail, reject the idea of an eternal hell all together... and most notably one of the most major catholic theologians of the 20th century proposed the same thing in one of his books (which I have read significant portions of) 'dare we hope all men be saved'... not only was there no blowback he got elevated to cardinal. You are welcome to read the discussion... but I will be honest with your excellent skills to minimize deflect and rationalize your own position I doubt a private message will be sent to you by me... 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: I too doubt the wall will ever be built, or that Roe will be overturned. At least not before this country kills itself. It's nice to dream, though... No... it won't happen. It is more likely that Willy Wonka will announce that Trump is an escaped oompa loompa and needs to be returned because hes responsible for killing ten hookers. Which the first part... I could see maybe happening... maybe at least as an onion article. But yeah... it just won't happen... 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: Asking the question, "Why can't I come kill you?" is not the same as saying, "I'm going to come and kill you". One is a question, the other is a violent threat. Try it out on a cop... If you need someone to bail you out though don't call me. 1 hour ago, fides' Jack said: Maybe, if I get time to round up a bunch of sources... It's all over the place, all the time now, though. Not difficult to find. Especially on comment boards and twitter. I won't hold my breath... in fact I won't even expect it... And I would like your question to why you can't kill the cop for no reason to come in the middle of a conversation where it is both already emotional and stressful... not well understood... and without context to why you are saying it... You can even do your question to why can't the cop kill you for no reason... it will just result in you going to a different place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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