One life for another?

[mzkto]

Does it seem odd to anyone other than myself that our faith would require us to give up one life for another? In the situation where a pregnant girl with a  medical condition could lose her life if she proceeds with her pregnancy, so that she can die to let another live? What sense does this make? What if this child is left with a druggy father whose life is nothing but a mess...not all children are lucky enough to have family to support them...so, my question remains, why is one life more precious than another, and where does it say that you must give your life up for another?

[CatherineM]

All life has equal human dignity. In your example we would kill a life in certainty in order to prevent a death that is only probably or a possibility. Doctors can be wrong. Many women told they would die if continuing a pregnancy has survived. 

[mzkto]

This is where my faith takes a turn. I don't see any passage where God speaks of this situation and talks on the topic. I feel the same for a child/minor or even a woman who is raped and then forced to carry a child conceived from sin, violence, and evil. 

These "laws" of the church need reevaluated.

[CatherineM]

They will never be re-evaluated. That you can bet the bank on. It will never be okay to end the life of a child due to the issues of the parents. If your faith is based on the Church being okay with killing a child, maybe you should try paganism. They’re recruiting. 

[mzkto]

You're entitled to your thoughts as I am to mine.  Killing a child and allowing a mother to die are no different. Each life is important. Have you noticed the decline in Catholics? Yeah, maybe it is time to re-evaluate the teachings of MAN..and Let me know where you see that God said one must die to let another live. I'm waiting.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, mzkto said:

This is where my faith takes a turn. I don't see any passage where God speaks of this situation and talks on the topic. I feel the same for a child/minor or even a woman who is raped and then forced to carry a child conceived from sin, violence, and evil. 

These "laws" of the church need reevaluated.

I think God has spoken : "Thou shalt not kill".   

[mzkto]

 Same thing! If the mother dies, the baby and pregnancy have killed her. Tell her where The Lord said you must give your own life up!

[Guest]

I am Catholic and coming from the Catholic Teaching.  I hold that human life from conception is not some accident flowing from human sexuality, but that human life from conception is created by God and comes from God within the context of human sexuality.  I think and hope I have said it right.

Abortion "is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church" (Evangelium Vitae 62). 

https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae.html

 

Murder (of the innocent in this instance) is a crime and a crime can never make for a good end.   The crime itself is murder and is criminal and remains a crime and criminal and nothing can change that.

 

 

Here is a spot on Catholic statement from what I thought was a rather unlikely source:

"Also missing in the ends/means ethics discussion is an understanding of the Providence of God. God did not simply create the world, populate it with people, and then leave them to muddle through on their own with no oversight from Him. Rather, God has a plan and purpose for mankind which He has been bringing to pass through the centuries. Every decision made by every person in history has been supernaturally applied to that plan. He states this truth unequivocally: “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do” (Isaiah 46:10-11). God is intimately involved in and in control over His creation. Furthermore, He states that He works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). A Christian who lies on a resume or aborts a baby would be violating God’s law and denying His ability to provide for a family and preserve a mother’s life if He purposes to do so.

Those who do not know God may be forced to justify their means to an end, but those who claim to be children of God have no reason whatsoever to break one of God’s commandments, deny His sovereign purpose, or bring reproach to His Name."

https://www.gotquestions.org/ends-justify-means.html

(The Providence of God is Catholic Doctrine)

Edited June 22, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[mzkto]

QUOTE: "I hold that human life from conception is not some accident flowing from human sexuality, but that human life from conception is created by God and comes from God within the context of human sexuality"

Let's take a case where an 11 year old little girl is walking down the street, gets abducted, raped and becomes pregnant. This isn't some accident flowing from human sexuality??? Then it's mandatory for this innocent child to go through with a pregnancy and ruin, her life because a monster decided to force this act of violence and sin on her? Even if she gives it up, she is a CHILD who will never be looked at the same by her peers. She will always be known for this years later. Is she expected to go into hiding, give birth, and then resume childhood and forget this ever happened? There is no way I can believe that God holds her or her parents responsible if they terminate a pregnancy that would ruin lives in order to allow one, possibly one with a"bad seed" that will grow up to ruin other lives. Again, I can not find these situations in the Bible. Monsters and pedophiles have now muddied the waters and I will NEVER believe, Catholic or not,  that God isn't more understanding that that!

[Anomaly]

I'm confused, mzkto

Are you saying that all life is equally valuable on a philosophical level, or is life value determined by societal usefulness, or is life valued differently based on a understanding what a God/religion says?

(I’m asking to maybe discuss, I’m not a Catholic here to argue.)

Edited June 22, 2018 by Anomaly

[mzkto]

According to the church, there is no reason to abort a baby, even if the mother is a child herself who has been raped against her own will at the hands of a pedophile during a violent act of sex. 

[Anomaly]

I am not inclined to debate Catholic policy.  But what about according to you?   Are some lives more valuable or less equal?

[CatherineM]

How about if the mom needs a heart transplant and her child is her only match. She’ll die without the transplant. The child is 12 years old. Do we kill the child so the mom can live?

if you think a rape is violating, an abortion is even more so. It’s physically, emotionally, and spiritually more damaging. Why re-injure a child who’s already been devastated?

[mzkto]

7 hours ago, Anomaly said:

I am not inclined to debate Catholic policy.  But what about according to you?   Are some lives more valuable or less equal?

That would be my point. Why is one life more valuable than the other? Why would the unborn child's life--a life we cannot guarantee to be a happy one, a healthy one, or without abuse, be the more valuable life to spare? I love children and this happens to be my daughter. My daughter whom I love more than anything is ill with kidney disease and has been treated for 10 months so far and was starting to show big improvements in her health when she discovered she was pregnant.  Yesterday, her doctor told her proceeding with the pregnancy could speed up the kidney disease causing renal failure.  If any of you have children, you may see another point of view. Losing your child so that one may (possibly) live. There is also the possibility of birth defects with the disease with the strong prednisone and medicine my daughter has been taking.  The kidney specialists told her over and over to not get pregnant but it happened. I am not against babies in any way. What I am against is someone telling me my daughter's life is not important to the Catholic Church-only the baby that may or may not survive and may or may not have a life with defects and struggles to live with. 

[Anomaly]

Oh.   So your daughter’s life is more important than your unborn grandchild’s life.    I too have grown daughters, and can appreciate that perspective

Edited June 23, 2018 by Anomaly