Where has sin gone?

[mzkto]

Growing up Catholic and spending years in Catholic school, I am confused. What used to be sinful is now okay. If it was a sin then, what has changed and who changed it? I am referring to unwed parents. Before someone is offended, I would like to explain. If you were a strict Catholic, you were first taught there is no sex before marriage. There was little talk about having children before marriage, as a regular, ordinary occurrence like today's standards.  Currently, there are so many children born from unmarried parents and it seems to be okay for some reason. We now embrace it; say it is God's plan; say there are no mistakes when it comes to life. It's all okay. I realize society has changed and most people have an outlook that everything goes, just so that you are not a criminal. So, if sin was sin, who decided it is no longer sinful...and unless it was God himself, who has the right to change the plan? It was either wrong then to teach such or is is wrong now. Both eras cannot be correct.  This is what confuses me as a Catholic. This topic and many others, where acceptance is required where it shouldn't be or else you're the bad person. The Catholic Guidelines have changed so much, I'm not even sure what it means to be Catholic anymore.

[little2add]

If you follow the old school Catholic guidelines your life will be better, happier and with greater reward.  You will have the greatest Quality of life that one can receive.

Edited June 8, 2018 by little2add

[CatherineM]

I think they are going to be very careful with each of these cases. Instead of one reaching decision, they are going to slowly laser beam each one as a way of keeping the gay lobby from losing their minds. 

[Anomaly]

The Catholic community tries not to make two wrongs a right.   One of the factors driving women to abortion for unwed pregnancy was community shame heaped iupon her, as well as her child and her parents.   A two minute mistake should not mean a lifetime or years of whispers and shame directed toward the mother and “illegitimate” child.  

Jesus apparently gave his Apostles and the priesthood the ability to forgive sin on earth, and effectively, in heaven.   Sin forgiven is as seperated from the person as east is from west...

“Its tough to witness forgiveness”, said the brother of the prodigal son.

 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Anomaly

[mzkto]

15 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

The Catholic community tries not to make two wrongs a right.   One of the factors driving women to abortion for unwed pregnancy was community shame heaped iupon her, as well as her child and her parents.   A two minute mistake should not mean a lifetime or years of whispers and shame directed toward the mother and “illegitimate” child.  

Jesus apparently gave his Apostles and the priesthood the ability to forgive sin on earth, and effectively, in heaven.   Sin forgiven is as seperated from the person as east is from west...

“Its tough to witness forgiveness”, said the brother of the prodigal son.

 

While I understand shame and guilt, I do not believe today's standards are based on either and feel that we are now given the okay to proceed with whatever we choose for whatever reason we choose it. It's either wrong or it's not wrong. There are far too many who take this path because we no longer preach about morals and responsibilities in the church.

15 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

 

 

[Anomaly]

Maybe you are partially right.   The Catholic community is not the only social reference our culture judges behavior on.  

It is a tough nuance to communicate loving the sinner whilst hating the sin.   As a parent myself, I strongly prefer my daughters to have children within a marriage.   I would be horrified greatly if they got pregnant outside of marriage, kept it secret, and had an abortion to protect my opinion and the community opinion of them.  

And what about the child who had no choice in the entire matter, and less control of the way society treats them?

What then, are the greater moral obligations?   Chastity is less important than life itself.  It could be argued that chastity is really a subset of respect and responsibility of your own person and life, as well as the life possibly created.  

[dominicansoul]

What has gone missing is holy fear of God.  No one cares what God thinks, and the ramifications of sin are no longer preached.  Terror of hell comes second, and I doubt most Catholics even think about hell anymore...

 

Who is to blame for all this?  Take a look at what's going on in seminaries.  Our priests aren't being formed to be shepherds.  It all makes sense now...

[Guest]

I think what might have happened is and I was educated by nuns for 12 years and raised in a Catholic home pre V2, is that pre V2 we took it that grave matter was indeed seriously sinful and it is in potential.  Post V2 we are developing a better understanding of full knowledge and full consent.  Pre V2 if it was grave matter and we knew it and consented to it, we were in mortal sin - full knowledge and full consent has always been an aspect of mortal sin but pre V2 we did not pay much attention to these.  Nowadays we are coming to a clearer understanding of what those two conditions mean.

The ok to seriously sinful matters is a misunderstanding of our theology of morality and sin - and a serious misunderstanding.  To ostracize a person from the community and oneself is the presumption that we have insight into their full knowledge and full consent, which we do not and cannot.  We are instructed by Jesus in fact:

Quote

(Matthew Chapter 1)"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.  For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?"

_____

In other words, if I consider another is in mortal sin (which is a judgement), then I am in mortal sin because I have so judged.

We might sometimes need to assess where a person is in our lives for some sound reason.  Assessment and judgement are two entirely different matters in this instance.  Judgement is to pass sentence.  To accuse another of mortal sin, it includes the judgement of hell as deserved.

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

On 8/27/2018 at 11:29 PM, dominicansoul said:

What has gone missing is holy fear of God.  No one cares what God thinks, and the ramifications of sin are no longer preached.  Terror of hell comes second, and I doubt most Catholics even think about hell anymore...

 

Who is to blame for all this?  Take a look at what's going on in seminaries.  Our priests aren't being formed to be shepherds.  It all makes sense now...

I think that the above is a sweeping generalisation.  Many do care what God thinks and do fear hell.  I would agree, however, that ramifications of sin especially mortal sin are not preached and this is a loss and needs to be addressed.  It is a factor, I think, in the huge drop off in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  It is also, in my book, a reflection of secularization.  I think that largely secularization can come about too because we laity are not grasping the importance to God and His Church of our vocation and mission - we have a whole document on it - Christifideles Laici:  http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici.html   I am fortunate that I live alone and can read much and give time to reflect and think about what I read.  However, not all in the laity can do this - especially if in the workforce with families I suspect.  I do tend to think as well that our heirarchy, being celibate, do not grasp this.   Our married deacons probably do grasp it, but I don't think that they have much input at the top at this stage anyway.  dUSt raised a very important point - a positive point -  in another thread i.e. how do we think The Church could be reformed and problems identified and addressed.

Not all seminaries are remiss in formation - probably many seminaries do form to be good shepherds.  We have many good and holy men in our priesthood.  I know some of them who are dedicated and faithful, concerned, shepherds of the People of God.  Deo Gratius.   Very thankfully, I have only ever known two priests who were anything but that.

It is easy to loose perspective as a (probably) knee jerk reaction to the shock and horror of the current most serious scandals in The Church.  If one had lived through pre V2 days, it was not such a wonderful time at all - in fact, it was a very confusing time to any but those who needed to be told what to do, when and why - blind obedience so as to know how to get to Heaven and avoid Hell.  And in fact, probably most of the serious scandals are situated pre V2 - or if not (unsure of statistics) a lot of them were.

 

[little2add]

same sex marriage, gender neutral, late term abortion, drunkenness, pornography, are all to0 common in todays society.  Is it any wonder or surprise that Catholic clergy members are being accused of sexually abusing or having inappropriate contact with children in cases dating back decades.  They are only human after all. 

I believe much of the accused Catholic clergy members are innocent, if the truth be known.  the public persona is that all Catholic clergy members are perverts...

we all live in an evil world that has gone to hell

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by little2add

[Guest]

Where any kind of mortal sin is concerned, the necessity are the three conditions at the same time

1. Grave Matter
2. Full Knowledge
3. Full Consent

As Catholics, we have got into the habit of calling grave matter, mortal sin.  It is not necessarily and that applies to all grave matter even serious grave matter.

---o0o---

Where the abuse including sexual abuse of children is concerned, my whole human nature is shocked and revolts against it - I don't need what The Church teaches to hold it as heinous and seriously grave matter, which She does. 

I do not understand pedaphilia or a desire to sexually relate to and abuse children.   Is it choice, is it nature or is it compulsion?  I have no idea.   It is indeed grave matter, but I cannot sit in judgement on pedaphiles or accuse them of mortal sin and Hell - even though my being revolts against them in disgust.  "Judge not, that you be not judged" Certainly, I can accuse them of criminal behaviour and any just secular penalty for this very serious crime.

But after they have paid the penalty for pedaphilia and are back in society?  What then?  "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".  Forgiveness is in the will, not in feelings.  To my knowledge, I have never met a pedaphile.  I can only hope and pray that I would walk the talk but have never been tested, tried.

Today it is like The Church is in a boat in a violently stormy sea with Jesus asleep - but He isn't and responds to the apostles waking Him up terrified, asking Him to save them: "Oh ye of little faith"   It is like Peter stepping out of the boat and when he takes his eyes off Jesus and realises what He has done, he starts to sink.  I have to, Grace prevailing, try to continue to keep my eyes on Jesus and His Divine Providence, no matter what is going on in and around me.   

"The gates of hell shall not prevail".

Where is my primary investment?  In my own negative reactions and fears, or in Jesus and His Divine Providence always and everywhere............even with such as I.

_________________

Matthew Chapter 8 "He got into a boat and his disciples followed him. Suddenly a violent storm 18 came up on the sea, so that the boat was being swamped by waves; but he was asleep.  They came and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! 19 We are perishing!" He said to them, "Why are you terrified, O you of little faith?" 20 Then he got up, rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was great calm.

[Didacus]

Call it what you will, sin remains sin.

You can't talk you way into convincing God that wrong is right.  That only works for silly men and their kins.