Christ went to hell

[little2add]

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-pope-say-hell-doesnt-exist/

Rating: Unproven

This rating indicates that insufficient evidence exists to establish the given claim as true, but the claim cannot be definitively proved false.

632.  The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection

.478.    This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

 

[GreenScapularedHuman]

I think that is a fair rating by Snopes, who generally do good articles and fact-checking, though I would take it a step further to it doesn't matter.

Quote

So if Pope Francis said this I don't think it really changes what most people believe or not about hell.

This was one of my opening comments in the other topic and I always added the caveat of 'alleged'.

Personally I don't think its scandal if he did. Then again I don't think it really matters even if it was scandal or wrong. Popes through the history of the Catholic Church have held 'heretical' positions and the only time its gotten them in trouble is when they started to preach it.

But... as an agnostic... someone looking on the fringes in and out. Ask yourself this. Suppose Pope Francis came out sometime, lets say an hour after you read this, and said "Yes. I don't believe in a hell."

Did he change the doctrines of the church? No. Would that be all that different from him declining to condemn lgbtqers with the famous "who am I to judge?" It changed doctrine none. Did Catholics suddenly decide lgbtqers were okay? No. Did the Catholic Church change its position? No.

So even supposing Pope Francis beyond a shadow of doubt said it... it doesn't matter...

I think the discussion on why he might of said it or what he could of potentially meant is more interesting.

Edited April 8, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman

[little2add]

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.'”

“The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs,” the catechism says.

The alleged quotes ascribed to Pope Francis directly contradict the many public remarks he has made in homilies and speeches confirming the existence of hell.

Meeting a group of children and teens during a Rome parish visit March 8, 2015, a female Scout asked the pope, “If God forgives everybody, why does hell exist?”

The pope praised the question, saying it was “very important” as well as “a good and difficult question.”

The pope assured the children that God is good but reminded them that there was also a “very proud angel, very proud, very intelligent, and he was envious of God. Do you understand? He was envious of God. He wanted God’s place. And God wanted to forgive him, but he said, ‘I don’t need your forgiveness. I am good enough!'”

“This is hell: It is telling God, ‘You take care of yourself because I’ll take care of myself.’ They don’t send you to hell, you go there because you choose to be there. Hell is wanting to be distant from God because I do not want God’s love. This is hell. Do you understand?”

[GreenScapularedHuman]

18 minutes ago, little2add said:

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.'”

“The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs,” the catechism says.

The alleged quotes ascribed to Pope Francis directly contradict the many public remarks he has made in homilies and speeches confirming the existence of hell.

Meeting a group of children and teens during a Rome parish visit March 8, 2015, a female Scout asked the pope, “If God forgives everybody, why does hell exist?”

The pope praised the question, saying it was “very important” as well as “a good and difficult question.”

The pope assured the children that God is good but reminded them that there was also a “very proud angel, very proud, very intelligent, and he was envious of God. Do you understand? He was envious of God. He wanted God’s place. And God wanted to forgive him, but he said, ‘I don’t need your forgiveness. I am good enough!'”

“This is hell: It is telling God, ‘You take care of yourself because I’ll take care of myself.’ They don’t send you to hell, you go there because you choose to be there. Hell is wanting to be distant from God because I do not want God’s love. This is hell. Do you understand?”

My previous comment to you still stands. Not engaging. Have fun posting to yourself.
 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman

[little2add]

what are you so angry about (not just to me , personally, but to everybody on this site)?    I apologize, to you, if I said something wrong.   

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by little2add

[little2add]

 

We read in the Apostle’s Creed that Jesus “descended into hell.” 

While his body rested in Joseph’s crypt, the Lord entered hades. In this event we call the harrowing of hell, Christ entered not as victim, but as victor. He came to raze the place. There in the realm of the dead, Christ blasted through Satan’s gates like a battering ram. 

As fourth-century Spanish poet Prudentius painted the scene, “The door [of hell] is forced and yields before Him; the bolts are torn away; down falls the pivot broken; that gate so ready to receive the inrush, so unyielding in face of those that would return, is unbarred and gives back the dead. . .

-------------------------------------------------------------

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

Amen.

 

[fides' Jack]

On 4/9/2018 at 11:13 AM, little2add said:

 

We read in the Apostle’s Creed that Jesus “descended into hell.” 

While his body rested in Joseph’s crypt, the Lord entered hades. In this event we call the harrowing of hell, Christ entered not as victim, but as victor. He came to raze the place. There in the realm of the dead, Christ blasted through Satan’s gates like a battering ram. 

As fourth-century Spanish poet Prudentius painted the scene, “The door [of hell] is forced and yields before Him; the bolts are torn away; down falls the pivot broken; that gate so ready to receive the inrush, so unyielding in face of those that would return, is unbarred and gives back the dead. . .

-------------------------------------------------------------

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

Amen.

 

This is not the teaching of the Church.  The actual teaching is best understood from the Baltimore Catechism.  It's very simple:

Quote

What do we mean when we say in the Apostle's Creed that Christ descended into hell?  
When we say that Christ descended into hell we mean that, after He died, the soul of Christ descended into a place or state of rest, called limbo, where the souls of the just were waiting for Him.

The 'hell' mentioned in the Apostle's Creed is not the same place the souls of the damned go.  Call it limbo, or give it another name if you want, but it was distinctly separate.

[little2add]

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD

ARTICLE 5
"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"

631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477

Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488

IN BRIEF

636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.

[GreenScapularedHuman]

7 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

The 'hell' mentioned in the Apostle's Creed is not the same place the souls of the damned go.  Call it limbo, or give it another name if you want, but it was distinctly separate.

Except it is... purgatory, limbo of the infants, and limbo of the fathers are all subsets of hell in traditional Catholic theology.

[little2add]