How Do Protestants Avoid This Scripture?

[MorphRC]

thx

[Guest JeffCR07]

i'll be praying too! I know we tend to argue a bunch on these boards, but you should know that I really am praying for you, and I count you among my friends

[MorphRC]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 29 2004, 11:01 PM'] i'll be praying too! I know we tend to argue a bunch on these boards, but you should know that I really am praying for you, and I count you among my friends [/quote]
Feels weird, I dont even have this much support off-line..lol

Thx

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='Jun 27 2004, 03:48 PM']
The problem is, as a protestant is it is quite easy to take verses out of their context in order to apply them directly as authority in your life. So, my understanding of that verse when I was a protestant was that I had to forgive people who had hurt me....and that kind of fitted into other bible verses I read!

Of course I had no idea about the amazing Sacrament of Penance at the time, which I now know is utterly incredible and liberating! [/quote]
I think the emphasis placed on confession varies from one Protestant denomination to another. I was raised understanding this verse to mean that, when you sinned, you were to confess it to God and to the person affected by your sin. I think that's on the right track (confessing to God and everything), and I think the Catholic view makes the most of that in the sacrament of Penance, so maybe it's the fullness of confession. I'm not wording it right, so I hope this makes a little bit of sense.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='shinobininjasp' date='Jun 29 2004, 12:20 PM'] I think the emphasis placed on confession varies from one Protestant denomination to another. I was raised understanding this verse to mean that, when you sinned, you were to confess it to God and to the person affected by your sin.  I think that's on the right track (confessing to God and everything), and I think the Catholic view makes the most of that in the sacrament of Penance, so maybe it's the fullness of confession. I'm not wording it right, so I hope this makes a little bit of sense. [/quote]
So you looked at it as kind of a "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" thing? or more like "go to your brother and settle your argument before worshipping" (extreme paraphrase there...)?

Edited June 29, 2004 by p0lar_bear

[j_calvin]

[quote name='P3chrmd' date='Jun 27 2004, 03:28 AM'] How do protestants explain this line in John!? I mean come on can it be spelled out any easier by Our Lord...CONFESSION! IT WORKS!!!!

[b]John 21-23[/b]

[i]and he said to them again, Peace be with you.

'As the Father sent me,
so am I sending you.'

After saying this he breathed on them and said:

Receive the Holy Spirit.
If you forgive anyone's sins,
they are forgiven;
if you retain anyone's sins,
they are retained.

[New Jerusalem Bible][/i] [/quote]
This is how I would answer it, quoting of course my brother John Calvin,

... that this right was granted to the Apostles, in order to maintain the credit of the Gospel, which they had been commissioned to preach. For Christ does not here appoint confessors, to inquire minutely into each sin by means of low mutterings, but preachers of his Gospel, who shall cause their voice to be heard, and who shall seal on the hearts of believers the grace of the atonement obtained through Christ. We ought, therefore, to keep by the manner of forgiving sins, so as to know what is that power which has been granted to the apostles.

Christ adds this second clause, in order to terrify the despisers of his Gospel, that they may know that they will not escape punishment for this pride. As the embassy of salvation and of eternal life has been committed to the apostles, so, on the other hand, they have been armed with vengeance against all the ungodly, who reject the salvation offered to them, as Paul teaches, (2 Corinthians 10:6.) But this is placed last in order, because it was proper that the true and real design of preaching the Gospel should be first exhibited. That we are reconciled to God belongs to the nature of the Gospel; that believers are ad-judged to eternal life may be said to be accidentally connected with it. For this reason, Paul, in the passage which I lately quoted, when he threatens vengeance against unbelievers, immediately adds, after that your obedience shall have been fulfilled, (2 Corinthians 10:6;) for he means, that it belongs peculiarly to the Gospel to invite all to salvation, but that it is accidental to it that it brings destruction to any. It ought to be observed, however, that every one who hears the voice of the Gospel, if he do not embrace the forgiveness of sins which is there promised to him, is liable to eternal damnation; for, as it is a living savior to the children of God, so to those who perish it is the savour of death to (2 Corinthians 2:16.) Not that the preaching of the Gospel is necessary for condemning the reprobate, for by nature we are all lost, and, in addition to the hereditary curse, every one draws down on himself additional causes of death, but because the obstinacy of those who knowingly and willingly despise the Son of God deserves much severer punishment.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Except that Calvin believed in Double Predestination (that you are positively saved or condemed from before your birth). If He is right about Double Predestination, he is wrong about the Apostles [quote]cause(ing) their voice to be heard, and who shall seal on the hearts of believers the grace of the atonement obtained through Christ.[/quote]

By the Calvinist theory of Double Predestination, the actions of those here on earth, whether Apostle or not, cannot impact an individual's salvation.

His later doctrine of Double Predestination contradicts this earlier quote.

[j_calvin]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 29 2004, 04:53 PM'] Except that Calvin believed in Double Predestination (that you are positively saved or condemed from before your birth). If He is right about Double Predestination, he is wrong about the Apostles

By the Calvinist theory of Double Predestination, the actions of those here on earth, whether Apostle or not, cannot impact an individual's salvation.

His later doctrine of Double Predestination contradicts this earlier quote. [/quote]
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners? already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us."2 Luther continued:
When men hear us say that God works both good and evil in us, and that we are subject to God's working by mere passive necessity, they seem to imagine a man who is in himself good, and not evil, having an evil work wrought in him by God; for they do not sufficiently bear in mind how incessantly active God is in all His creatures, allowing none of them to keep holiday. He who would understand these matters, however, should think thus: God works evil in us (that is, by means of us) not through God's own fault, but by reason of our own defect. We being evil by nature, and God being good, when He impels us to act by His own acting upon us according to the nature of His omnipotence, good though He is in Himself, He cannot but do evil by our evil instrumentality; although, according to His wisdom, He makes good use of this evil for His own glory and for our salvation.2
Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin. Sin falls within the category of providential concurrence.

[Mary's Knight, La]

I have a small problem with saying God chose you so He's going to work to save you to person A and to person B uhmmm sorry I know the bible says God desires all men's salvation but... apparantly He doesn't desire yours enough to work to save you...

most non-catholics accuse catholics of limiting Jesus' sacrifice but here you appear to limit it, is His sacrifice infinite and accessible to all men or is it somehow only enough for a certain number.

For it to be that way God must, rather than be a loving father, be an arbirtrary creator who at a whim tosses His precious creation into the flames to be destroyed.

Problem two is that your statements destroy God's omnipotence, no more is it that God brings goodness out of nothing or that where sin is grace abounds all the more but that our own evil limits God's power. How does that co-exist with His omnipotence?

Edited June 29, 2004 by Mary's Knight, La

[j_calvin]

[quote name='Mary's Knight, La' date='Jun 29 2004, 06:16 PM'] I have a small problem with saying God chose you so He's going to work to save you to person A and to person B uhmmm sorry I know the bible says God desires all men's salvation but... apparantly He doesn't desire yours enough to work to save you...


For it to be that way God must, rather than be a loving father, be an arbirtrary creator who at a whim tosses His precious creation into the flames to be destroyed.

Problem two is that your statements destroy God's omnipotence, no more is it that God brings goodness out of nothing or that where sin is grace abounds all the more but that our own evil limits God's power. How does that co-exist with His omnipotence? [/quote]
It is man's choice if he doesn't want to be saved. If he becomes presumptious and feels that his sin is above God his heart will harden and God will know that is what he will do. God knows all that is the essence of his omnipotence. God knows person A who will accept his terms of salavation by Christ's death and attonement and he knows that person B will refuse it.

God must through His perfect justice throw men into the pits of satan due to their insolence and presumption by their thinking since they belong to a church that automatically they are saved.

I know some Catholics that think that since they belong to the Catholic Church that they are saved and can continue in their sin. The church sexual scandal was good for the Catholic Church for out of evil God brings forth fruit of repentance. I hope all of you Catholics are heeding His warning. I got it!

Peace,

Rick

[Mary's Knight, La]

from a previous post i'm taking it you follow the reformed position
j_calvin @ Jun 29 2004, 05:01 PM
[quote] God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves.[/quote]

If i understand you correctly, and it is certainly possible that I'm not, in this you're saying. God works in person A(brought up in my last post) to such a degree that it *causes* person A to be able to choose salvation and that it also causes A to choose it. Whereas, knowing person B will reject it, they are prevented out of hand from being able to choose it?

Romans 5:18
[quote]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.[/quote]

yet another thing I may be wrong on but this seems to say that for all who have sinned the possibility of regeneration and faith is available. Which would be not God's withholding the possibility that is happening but rather their refusing to accept what is available.

Edited June 30, 2004 by Mary's Knight, La

[j_calvin]

[quote name='Mary's Knight, La' date='Jun 29 2004, 07:09 PM'] from a previous post i'm taking it you follow the reformed position
j_calvin @ Jun 29 2004, 05:01 PM


If i understand you correctly, and it is certainly possible that I'm not, in this you're saying. God works in person A(brought up in my last post) to such a degree that it *causes* person A to be able to choose salvation and that it also causes A to choose it. Whereas, knowing person B will reject it, they are prevented out of hand from being able to choose it?

Romans 5:18


yet another thing I may be wrong on but this seems to say that for all who have sinned the possibility of regeneration and faith is available. Which would be not God's withholding the possibility that is happening but rather their refusing to accept what is available. [/quote]
Once Christ has called someone to be His own, can He lose that person? The Biblical answer is "no!" John 3:16, probably the most well-known passage in the Bible says that those who believe in Christ will not perish. Christ will never allow one of His sheep to stay lost.

Arminians believe that even after being regenerated man is still his own boss and that man will do what he wants when he wants to do it. This position cannot be defended exegetically. Once someone has been freed from sin he is a slave to God (Romans 6:22). And God will not allow his slave to run away! "No one can snatch them out of My hand." A good analogy would be a man and an elephant having a tug-o-war match - the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Man may try to rebel against God, but in the end God will triumph.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 30 2004, 08:23 AM'] Except that Calvin believed in Double Predestination (that you are positively saved or condemed from before your birth). If He is right about Double Predestination, he is wrong about the Apostles

By the Calvinist theory of Double Predestination, the actions of those here on earth, whether Apostle or not, cannot impact an individual's salvation.

His later doctrine of Double Predestination contradicts this earlier quote. [/quote]
Where the heck did he get these ideas? This is like Islamic Fatalism, your screwed even before your born. I cant believe people honestly follow this guy.

[MorphRC]

btw: When did John Calvin live? Year & location? I heard he was german, havent really studied him.

[P3chrmd]

[quote]Once Christ has called someone to be His own, can He lose that person? The Biblical answer is "no!" John 3:16, probably the most well-known passage in the Bible says that those who believe in Christ will not perish. Christ will never allow one of His sheep to stay lost.

Arminians believe that even after being regenerated man is still his own boss and that man will do what he wants when he wants to do it. This position cannot be defended exegetically. Once someone has been freed from sin he is a slave to God (Romans 6:22). And God will not allow his slave to run away! "No one can snatch them out of My hand." A good analogy would be a man and an elephant having a tug-o-war match - the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Man may try to rebel against God, but in the end God will triumph. [/quote]

OH NO! OSAS!

I used to believe this trash as a southern baptist! ITS THE WORK OF THE DEVIL! To believe in eternal security is evil! Its the Devil saying...."hey, you excepted Jesus as your Lord...right? And you know you are saved now forever...so why don't you go out and sin...do all you want...it dosen't matter...because you are eternally secure"!

I MEAN COME ON...why do people believe this trash...why did I?

[b]"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."[/b]
[i]THANKS CATHOLIC.COM[/i]

Edited June 30, 2004 by P3chrmd