Francis denies Hell

[Seven77]

2 hours ago, GreenScapularedHuman said:

Except not. From Hans Urs Von Balthasar ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Urs_von_Balthasar ) highly noted and influential Catholic theologian of the 20th century (was elevated to Cardinal for his work) disagreed on the eternal nature of hell punishment moreover in his book: "Dare We Hope: "All Men Be Saved". Also from Origen of Alexandria and Gregory of Nyssa, two cited and revered early church fathers for their traditional and reliable doctrine, rejected the eternal nature of hell punishment. There is also in fact not much of a case to make that hell punishment is eternal, moreover from the Bible, as the "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" points out, also pointing out that it was very much tradition in the Catholic Church to pray for the relief of those in hell well into the 14th century at very least. It is also traditional Catholic theology to admit that purgatory, limbo of the fathers, and limbo of the infants is a subset of hell... of which at very least two were not eternal.

But I did not say there was 'no hell'. I also note that is ridicule of another's beliefs, even if only a strawman which makes it a bit worse, which I believe is a violation of Phatmass' guidelines.
 

1

Origen,  who is not a Saint, held some untraditional views such as a belief in a kind of reincarnation. Even though he is recognized for his earlier traditional views… Just like Tertullian. And apparently, Gregory of Nyssa, who is a Saint, actually teaches an eternal hell properly understood… It has to do with free will and choosing eternal separation from God:

https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/01/teaching-of-gregory-of-nyssa-on.html

And, about Pope Francis allegedly denying the existence of hell… He actually said – – verifiably – – that there is an eternal hell and people can freely choose go there and separate themselves from God…

 http://www.ncregister.com/blog/johnclark/pope-francis-says-convert-so-you-dont-end-up-in-hell

And, in the above article it is stated that in the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, that belief in an eternal hell is a De Fidei doctrine… 

And, limbo was never a doctrine but rather a theological opinion while purgatory is a defined doctrine and is not a subset of hell… Purgatory is, believe it or not, a subset of heaven because those in purgatory will eventually end up there… 

[GreenScapularedHuman]

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

Origen,  who is not a Saint, held some untraditional views such as a belief in a kind of reincarnation. Even though he is recognized for his earlier traditional views… Just like Tertullian. And apparently, Gregory of Nyssa, who is a Saint, actually teaches an eternal hell properly understood… It has to do with (filtered) will and choosing eternal separation from God:

https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/01/teaching-of-gregory-of-nyssa-on.html

Being a Saint is not required to be significant as a church father nor is it even preferred. Also its not saying very much since they existed pre-congegration so the only reason Origen didn't get considered a Saint is because his cults didn't survive.

And this is a case where you shouldn't just pick out the first blog which doesn't cite someone's work at all and deposit it as proof. Because to show you some other sources:
1. https://orthodoxwiki.org/Apocatastasis#Gregory_of_Nyssa
"St. Gregory of Nyssa accepted the idea of apocatastasis from Origen."
2. https://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html
"Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way."
3. https://orthodoxchurchlife.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-origen-st-gregory-of-nyssa-and-st-isaac-the-syrian/
"Gregory of Nyssa, on the other hand, abandoned Origen’s speculations concerning preexistence and the precosmic fall, while holding fast to his belief in an ultimate restoration; and, significantly, he has never been anathematized for this, either in 553 or in more recent times."
4. "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma"(1960) by Dr. Ludwig Ott Page 482
"Origen's denial proceeded from the Platonic doctrinal opinion that the purpose of all punishment is the improvement of the delinquent. Origen was followed by St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Didymus of Alexandria and Evagrius Ponticus. St"

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

And, about Pope Francis allegedly denying the existence of hell… He actually said – – verifiably – – that there is an eternal hell and people can choose go there and separate themselves from God…

 http://www.ncregister.com/blog/johnclark/pope-francis-says-convert-so-you-dont-end-up-in-hell

At no point does Pope Francis say hell is eternal in this article of yours. It also doesn't necessarily contradict his alleged statement that the souls disappear. Some early fathers believed that the fires of hell literally destroyed souls. Which is rather close to what Pope Francis allegedly said: “They are not punished. Those who repent obtain God’s forgiveness and take their place among the ranks of those who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot be forgiven disappear. A hell doesn’t exist, the disappearance of sinning souls exists.” https://www.vox.com/2018/3/30/17179952/pope-francis-hell-vatican-interview-scalfari-italian

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

And, in the above article it is stated that in the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, that belief in an eternal hell is a De Fidei doctrine…

In the entry it states "... That the word "eternal" is not to be understood in the sense of a duration which is indeed long, but limited is proved by parallel expressions like "unquenchable fire" (Mt. 3, 12 ; Mk. 9, 43), or Hell, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished..."

Meaning that the eternity of hell punishment that is being marked as de fide is actually referencing that the fires of hell are eternal, something the new testament is very explicitly directly and clear about... but if the damned will suffer eternal punishment here is NOT included in such a statement. And there are plenty of other theologians of more profound note like Hans Urs Von Balthasar who disagrees that its settled.

It also ignores that other entries very clearly mention that the church prayed for the souls in hell AND that there is perhaps not as much distinction between purgatory and hell even that the purifying fires of purgatory may not cease even after general judgement.

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

And, limbo was never a doctrine but rather a theological opinion while purgatory is a defined doctrine and is not a subset of hell… Purgatory is, believe it or not, a subset of heaven because those in purgatory will eventually end up there… 

You are mistaken... Limbo of the Fathers is doctrine and STILL is doctrine. As the "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" on page 191 sates "Alter His Death, Christ's soul, which was separated from His body, descended into the underworld. (De fide.) The underworld is the place of detention for the !ouls of the just of the preChristian era, the so-called vestibule of hell (limbus Patnlm)." Meaning YES apart of hell. Also some other sources for good measure... Limbo of the Patriarchs - Wikipedia and Catholic Encyopedia - Limbo ...

Although yes, the Catholic Church did not put much certainty in the idea of Limbo of the Infants... despite that the Catholic Church has never ever recanted such a doctrine either. It is one of those ambiguous parts of Catholic theology that most Catholics are likely unaware. The current tone of the Catholic Church is that those infants who die with no personal sin can be saved, which arguably is more radical of a departure of the early church fathers who thought Baptism very important and needed for salvation...

Regarding Purgatory, it is a separation from god in traditional Catholic theology, and to cite the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as reluctant as I am to do so: "1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

And again the Catholic Encyclopedia - Purgatory  - "Some stress too has been laid upon the objection that the ancient Christians had no clear conception of purgatory, and that they thought that the souls departed remained in uncertainty of salvation to the last day; and consequently they prayed that those who had gone before might in the final judgment escape even the everlasting torments of hell."

If purgatory is a third location is not supported by the Chrch's tradition, doctrines, or anywhere that I have ever ever head of it. I know it is a popular imagining of lay Catholics. But to put it very simply either one is in heaven (with god in paradise) or one is not in heaven (without god and in degrees punishment).

If you can find a source that says otherwise I would be very surprised.

Edited April 17, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman

[Didacus]

The papa speaking to this guy may be à way to speak to and be heard at least in part by à group of people that may otherwise simply ignore him altogether.  

 

No such thing as bad publicity

[little2add]

Didn’t Frances denied denying damnation?

[little2add]

speaking of hell 

[linate]

Quote

here is a smart dude explaining why, despite some strong rhetoric in the early church, the early church itself was open to a path of making all of creation whole with God despite a bad experience for people who unduly reject Jesus.

 

"The basic message of my book is that in God"s eyes you and every one of them is priceless. The question John and I are discussing tonight is "Will hell eventually be abolished?" So it would seem appropriate to begin by asking what is hell? That word has been defined in different ways down through the centuries: from a place of literal fire; to a kingdom of darkness ruled by the devil and his demons; to what is the most common definition today: separation from God.

But for most people holding to the traditional view of Hell, two components are primary: First, hell is a place or condition of conscious misery and second that misery will never ever, ever, ever, ever end! I said that a little dramatically because in my experience most people"Christians today"have never really thought through the implications of what they say they believe. Punishment for sin is not the issue. We see sin punished all the time in this life and God has made it clear that there is punishment in the age (or ages) to come. But punishment that never ends is a completely different matter. It brings to mind cruel tyrants who torture their subjects who don"t do their bidding. Endless conscious misery is the most horrific thing you can possibly imagine and if you really believed it was true, you would be weeping almost every moment of every day over the fate of those who are lost and especially those you know personally.

I wrote my book to show that that understanding of Hell was not the teaching of the early Church, it is not the teaching of the Bible, and is contrary to what the scriptures reveal about the nature and character of God. What the early Church believed is important because they were closest to Jesus and the Apostles, they read the New Testament in their native tongue, they had the greatest impact on the surrounding culture of any time in history, and they established the faith that we now profess. They were the ones who wrote the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed to explain clearly what true Christians believed. They were the ones who formulated the doctrines of the divinity of Christ and the Trinity. And they were the ones who set up or who put together the 27 books that we call the New Testament. During the first 500 years after Christ, the dominant view within the leadership and laity of the church was that God will ultimately restore all of his creation.

Clement of Alexandria was one"born around AD 150. For him to believe that God was unable to save all was unthinkable because that would mean God is weak. To believe that God is unwilling was also unthinkable because that would mean that God is not good. For Clement, God is the Lord of the universe who will ultimately bring about the salvation of the universe.

Another leader in the early Church was Gregory of Nyssa. Gregory added the phrase, "I believe in the life of the world to come", to the Nicene Creed, and is still revered as one of the greatest of the early Church fathers. Gregory explained that in due course evil will pass away into non-existence, it will disappear utterly from the realm of existence. Divine and uncompounded goodness will encompass within itself every rational creature"no single being created by God will fail to achieve the kingdom of God.

Even Saint Augustine"the most influential supporter of endless punishment in the early Church"acknowledged that in his day some, indeed "very many", deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. Conscious suffering that never ends was not the teaching of the early Church.

And it"s also not the teaching of Scripture, even though most people today think it is. Four different words in the Bible have been translated to the English word "hell": Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.

Gehenna is the one most commonly translated that way in modern versions. Gehenna was well known during the time of Jesus as a specific location near Jerusalem that had been associated with child sacrifice in the past and was then most likely used as the common dump of the city. It was a place people could actually visit. And it spoke to Jesus and his listeners of repulsion, shame, and horrible death"instead of experiencing honor like their ancestors whose bodies were treated reverently when they died, those cast into Gehenna would experience the immense dishonor associated with those whose bodies had been thrown out into a dump to become an object of scorn for the masses. In an honor-shame culture like that in the ancient, and even modern Near East, that would be a fate worse than death. Gehenna didn"t mean punishment beyond the grave"endless punishment"in the Old Testament, during the time of Jesus, it didn"t mean that in the literature outside of the Bible, and it didn"t mean that for Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament.

The passage most often used as the clearest statement in the entire Bible that punishment in hell is endless is Matthew 25:46. In that verse, Jesus himself says that the wicked will go away to "eternal punishment" but the righteous to "eternal life".

The first thing to point out in that passage is that the word translated "eternal", doesn"t mean "never-ending". It actually means "the end is not known". It refers to a period of time longer or shorter, past or future, the boundaries of which are concealed, obscure, unseen, or unknown. For example, numerous times the Septuagint"the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament that Jesus and the Apostles used"the same adjective in this verse, "eternal", is used to describe the statutes governing the sacrifices and offerings made by the priests. They were said to be "eternal statutes" but they didn"t last forever, and were never intended to last forever. The Old Testament sacrificial system was designed to be replaced one day by the new covenant in Christ. In Micah chapter 4 verse 5 (and 17 other places in the Septuagint), the phrase "forever and ever" literally means "to the age and beyond".

The second thing to note is that when the same adjective is used twice in the same sentence it does not necessarily mean the same thing each time. For example, if an NBA basketball player we"re standing in front of one World Trade Center in New York City, you could honestly say, "a tall man is standing in front of a tall building," but no one would think you thought that the man in the building were the same size! The adjective tall derives its meaning from what it refers to. In the first instance to a man, in the second to a building. In Matthew 25:46, the adjective that Jesus used [aionios] "eternal" refers to two completely different things: life and punishment. Eternal life is the divine life that comes from God"that life never ends. Eternal punishment is the divine punishment that comes from his hand"the duration of that divine punishment may certainly be temporary, lasting as long as it"s necessary until it accomplishes its purpose. The verse should be translated, "the wicked shall go away to the punishment in the age to come and the righteous to the life in the age to come"."

"So what does the Bible actually teach about the salvation of mankind? We"ve been so accustomed to thinking that only a few will ultimately be saved that we often completely overlook the message that is at the heart of Christianity. Jesus Christ is the savior of the world not just the savior of part of the world. The angel who appeared to the shepherds on the night of Jesus birth did not say, "I bring you good news of great joy there will be for some of the people," he just said, "I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people." When speaking to the crowd after his triumphal entry, Jesus said, "when I am lifted up from the earth will draw all people to myself." In Romans, Paul said, "as in Adam all die so in Christ all will be made alive." The Apostle John told his readers that, "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." The message at the heart of Christianity is that Jesus Christ came to redeem all mankind. Endless conscious suffering in Hell was not the teaching of the early Church, it"s not the teaching of Scripture, and it"s also contrary to what scripture reveals about the nature and character of God.

It"s not uncommon to see a bumper sticker on a car or graffiti on a wall that says, "God loves you". They"re so common that it"s almost become a cliche but is it true? Does God really love you? The religious leaders of Jesus day didn"t think so. They thought God only loved people like them. So Jesus told them three parables to show them God"s heart. The Good Shepherd is not satisfied with the restoration of 99 percent of what is his, he seeks until he finds the one lost sheep. The woman with ten silver coins is not satisfied with 90 percent of her wealth, she searches until she finds the lost coin. The prodigal son"s father waited until his son returned after completely messing up his life. He welcomed him joyfully and his son was restored. "God is not willing that any should perish but desires that all will come to the knowledge of the truth."

Scripture says there is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord. No plan of his can be thwarted"nothing is impossible with God. What Scripture reveals about God that his love is unconditional, his power is irresistible, and he never gives up.

Let me close by making a few observations about free will, since that"s a major focus of John"s position. Only God has absolute free will, only he is free to accomplish all that he desires. He gives each person some free will but always within limits and in the context of his absolute free will. For example, none of us was given the freedom to choose when we were born, where we were born, who our parents would be, what our physical stature or mental capacities would be, whether we"re male or female, or even when and how we will die. We have no control over many of the factors that directly impact the situation and decisions that we make every day. Joseph didn"t choose to be made second-in-command in Egypt, God arranged the circumstances for that to happen. Jonah ran away from God but God"s will prevailed and Jonah found himself in Nineveh proclaiming the message that God had given him. Scripture is clear when it says, "The king"s heart is in the hand of the Lord, he directs it like a watercourse wherever he wishes. The mind of man plans his way but the Lord directs his steps. Many are the plans in a person"s heart but it is the Lord"s purpose that prevails." God is not helpless in the face of mankind"s free will. God specifically said that "he desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." God specifically said that "one day every knee will bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue will freely and joyfully confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Will hell eventually be abolished? Yes, it will. When all is said and done, all those who were created by God will walk through Heaven"s doors and "God will be all in all" after "the restoration of all things" the final word will once again be, "God saw all that he had made and it was very good!""

 

[GreenScapularedHuman]

7 hours ago, linate said:

Quote

Gehenna is the one most commonly translated that way in modern versions. Gehenna was well known during the time of Jesus as a specific location near Jerusalem that had been associated with child sacrifice in the past and was then most likely used as the common dump of the city.

 

This is actually not accurate. There is scant evidence that it was used for child sacrifice, as in virtually none. There is also no evidence that I have ever seen that it was a dump. Far as I have read and as some more skeptical commentators have pointed out is almost for sure a myth, a popular myth, but a myth ( http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/06/05/the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-myths-thatll-preach/ ).

It was a valley.

Specifically this valley:

If you want to go look at it on Google Maps just plug in "31°46′6.262″N 35°13′49.58″E" and it will take you right there.

[little2add]

Now troubles are many
They're as
Deep as a well
I can swear there ain't no Heaven
But I pray there ain't no hell
Swear there ain't no Heaven
And I'll pray there ain't no hell
But I'll never know by livin'
Only my dyin' will tell, yes only my
Dyin' will tell, oh yeah
Only my dyin' will tell

 

 

I can swear there ain't no Heaven, But I pray there ain't no hell

Edited April 23, 2018 by little2add

[Pax17]

Forget this version, find the original sung by the late Laura Nyro who wrote the song...the message is  more powerful.

[little2add]

 

Never hear her before, like!