Francis denies Hell

[Anomaly]

I don’t see why it’s so important to everyone.  

If fear of hell is the only reason why you aren’t a murderer, it’s likely you’re missing the whole point.  

Is your life here going to be more satisfying, thinking there are people in hell, suffering eternal torment?    

Or if you’re in heaven, you can be 100% ecstatic knowing your mom is screaming in hell for eternity because she went shopping one weekend?

Edited April 10, 2018 by Anomaly

[Luigi]

33 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Or if you’re in heaven, you can be 100% ecstatic knowing your mom is screaming in hell for eternity because she went shopping one weekend?

Missing Mass on Sunday isn't a mortal sin. And any sin, mortal or otherwise, can and will be forgiven if the sinner repents and asks for forgiveness.

These kinds of statements intentionally misconstrue the basic teachings of the Church. Thanks for contributing noting at all to the discussion.

[Anomaly]

Missing Mass to go shopping is a mortal sin.  Google it.  

Much of my point is that fear of hell is only a limited motivator.   Aren’t you first supposed to be good and loving because it’s good and loving ?

Moral behavior isn’t determined by fear of consequences. 

[GreenScapularedHuman]

3 hours ago, Anomaly said:

I don’t see why it’s so important to everyone.  

If fear of hell is the only reason why you aren’t a murderer, it’s likely you’re missing the whole point.  

Is your life here going to be more satisfying, thinking there are people in hell, suffering eternal torment?    

Or if you’re in heaven, you can be 100% ecstatic knowing your mom is screaming in hell for eternity because she went shopping one weekend?

The last part of your message is apart of the old reconciliationist views in early Christian belief. There were many variations of this belief but one included that eventually the prayers of the faithful, moreover the elect, would sway god to save them.

To quote the apparition of Fatima, which sounds reconciliationist to my eye (though not traditionally taken that way).  "You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace." The conservative interpretation of this is 'to save them' is referencing those still alive but in context that doesn't quite make so much sense. And its obvious through the entire purported apparition that our Lady was tragically saddened and pained about the fate and condition of the poor souls in hell. This matches up with a reconciliationist view, it seems to indicate that the prayers of the faithful/the church/and our lady (whom traditional Catholic marianology says god denies mary nothing)...

2 hours ago, Luigi said:

Missing Mass on Sunday isn't a mortal sin. And any sin, mortal or otherwise, can and will be forgiven if the sinner repents and asks for forgiveness.

These kinds of statements intentionally misconstrue the basic teachings of the Church. Thanks for contributing noting at all to the discussion.

To be very fair, the Catholic Church teaches that she has the power to bind certain 'precepts' under the pain of sin (mortal sin). As such the Catholic Church does tend to think that it is required to attend mass on all sundays and holy days of obligation... though generally speaking good cause for missing which can be rather broadly taken might lessen the gravity from grave matter (mortal sin).

But even if that were not the case I think Anomaly was hinting to the 'work on Sundays' being grave matter, a conservative and traditional interpretation of the second commandment. Many modern Catholics however don't really think at all about this because its inconvenient.

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Missing Mass to go shopping is a mortal sin.  Google it.  

Much of my point is that fear of hell is only a limited motivator.   Aren’t you first supposed to be good and loving because it’s good and loving ?

Moral behavior isn’t determined by fear of consequences. 

Its also missing the very very constant message of Jesus to not be afraid.

[Anomaly]

I was not hinting at work on Sundays.   It’s about blowing off Mass to do something more fun.  

Regardless, the question really is how does the existence or non existence of hell affect how one behaves and orders their life in this existence?

Isn’t being good, simply for goodness’s sake the ideal?  Unless you are completely and pathologically amoral...

[GreenScapularedHuman]

59 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I was not hinting at work on Sundays.   It’s about blowing off Mass to do something more fun.  

Regardless, the question really is how does the existence or non existence of hell affect how one behaves and orders their life in this existence?

Isn’t being good, simply for goodness’s sake the ideal?  Unless you are completely and pathologically amoral...

Ah... Well I added the qualifier of "I think" for a reason. From the text itself I think my reading wasn't unreasonable. I dare say I think its a more potent argument since its something many many many Catholics engage in despite being in a conservative/traditional sense grave matter.

But as you like.

Threat of punishment does change behavior. Actual punishment not so much. At least if you believe the studies done into criminology. I am fairly sure there are people who live their lives in fear of hell but I think the reality is that many many many people don't care or do not consider themselves at risk of hellfire (even if in a very harsh and strict reading they in fact are).

What is 'goodness' sake' though? I suppose I take an evolutionary view to ethics. All ethics has a bit of self-serving and self-interest involved as well as benefits verses consequences (not necessarily punishments). So doing good very purely because its the right thing to do in disregard to benefit of the good? Maybe that is more ideal but that is very rare.

BUT... that being said I think you are right that merely being good because there is a threat of punishment doesn't make good people, it just makes people who are afraid of punishment.

[Luigi]

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Isn’t being good, simply for goodness’s sake the ideal?  Unless you are completely and pathologically amoral...

I don't know if the existence of hell is supposed to scare people into being good or not. But you've hit the nail on the head there at the end - hell is for people who are completely and pathologically amoral. You know murderers, rapists, etc. who don't repent. Being good for goodness' sake doesn't seem to motivate them. Hell may not scare them into being good - and I'm not sure that's its purpose. So they get sent to hell when their lives on earth are over and they haven't made any/some effort to repent, or express sorrow, or change their wicked ways. That way, the innocent victims don't have to spend eternity with the unrepentant so-and-so's who offed them. It's kind of like jail - it holds the offenders, to keep them away from the innocent. But the offenders choose to go to jail by choosing not to ask for forgiveness - because God will forgive any sin and will forgive anyone who asks.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Luigi

[Anomaly]

So going back to the point if the original post, about The Pope denying the existence of Hell...   The article was written by an atheist that has repeated demonstrated he has an agenda to discredit the Catholic religion.  The Catholic concept and teachings of Hell is nuanced and complicated as demonstrated by Christians here. 

Personally, as a thoughtful atheist, the existence of Hell is irrelevant unless I am simply choosing to discredit religion.  This entire story serves only to stir up controversy to sell papers, gain web clicks, and massage an old atheist’s ego.  

Meh. 

But great discussion about why  and what behaviors we choose to act on.   Perhaps that is why Francis likes to do these interviews, knowing he may be misinterpreted or misrepresented.  

[GreenScapularedHuman]

54 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

So going back to the point if the original post, about The Pope denying the existence of Hell...   The article was written by an atheist that has repeated demonstrated he has an agenda to discredit the Catholic religion.  The Catholic concept and teachings of Hell is nuanced and complicated as demonstrated by Christians here. 

Personally, as a thoughtful atheist, the existence of Hell is irrelevant unless I am simply choosing to discredit religion.  This entire story serves only to stir up controversy to sell papers, gain web clicks, and massage an old atheist’s ego.  

Meh. 

But great discussion about why  and what behaviors we choose to act on.   Perhaps that is why Francis likes to do these interviews, knowing he may be misinterpreted or misrepresented.  

The journalist isn't anti-religion or anti-catholicism. Hes actually been rather friendly to Pope Francis kinda going soft regarding church corruption, abuse, scandal, money-laundering, and not paying due taxes.

[little2add]

Luis Badilla Morales, director of the semi-official Vatican news aggregator, Il Sismografo, said in 2016 that it is “very clear” that the quotes attributed to Francis “don’t belong to the language he uses and of course to his theological training, especially when referring to the words of Jesus”.

This is not the first time the Press Office has had to walk back remarks Scalfari tried to put in the mouth of the Pope. In the wake of a November 2, 2015 article in La Repubblica, also under Scalfari’s by-line and reporting a “colloquy” between him and Pope Francis, then-spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi, SJ, explained, “t is clear that what is being reported by [Scalfari] in the latest [2015] article … is in no way reliable and cannot be considered as the Pope’s thinking.”

[Jack4]

On 4/11/2018 at 2:41 AM, Anomaly said:

Missing Mass to go shopping is a mortal sin.  Google it.  

Much of my point is that fear of hell is only a limited motivator.   Aren’t you first supposed to be good and loving because it’s good and loving ?

Moral behavior isn’t determined by fear of consequences. 

Catholic teaching distinguishes a twofold hatred of sin; one, perfect contrition, rises from the love of God Who has been grievously offended; the other, imperfect contrition, arises principally from some other motives, such as loss of heaven, fear of hell, the heinousness of sin, etc.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04337a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02065a.htm

[dominicansoul]

Hell exist and the children saw it at Fatima.  They saw it as a physical place filled with fire and souls "dancing" in eternal agony in the flames.  They saw souls falling into it like leaves off a tree.  Our Lady said "you have seen HELL where the souls of poor sinners go."  She then went on to say that the sin that gets the majority into hell are "sins of the flesh." 

 

I'll take her word over anyone...even if it is the Pope....

[GreenScapularedHuman]

2 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

Hell exist and the children saw it at Fatima.  They saw it as a physical place filled with fire and souls "dancing" in eternal agony in the flames.  They saw souls falling into it like leaves off a tree.  Our Lady said "you have seen HELL where the souls of poor sinners go."  She then went on to say that the sin that gets the majority into hell are "sins of the flesh." 

 

I'll take her word over anyone...even if it is the Pope....

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace."

At no point in time in the reported apparition of Fatima is there indication that it is eternal. In fact the opposite as cited here.

[dominicansoul]

She was speaking of the poor sinners not yet in hell.   Scripture and Jesus Christ himself speaks of Hell as an eternal punishment.  This is Truth.  

 

I can see why we have so many denominations and beliefs amongst mankind.  People can really twist Truth how they wish.  The Catholic Church has spoken and taught Truth from the time of the apostles to us.  Even with all our scoundrels and all our scandals, it has not changed one iota of the Gospel of Christ.  When someone says the world is flat, I immediately turn off from that person because he sounds ridiculous and a cad.  I must say I feel the same way when someone tries to debate there is no Hell.  

 

Good day 

Edited April 17, 2018 by dominicansoul

[GreenScapularedHuman]

14 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

She was speaking of the poor sinners not yet in hell.   Scripture and Jesus Christ himself speaks of Hell as an eternal punishment.  This is Truth.  

 

I can see why we have so many denominations and beliefs amongst mankind.  People can really twist Truth how they wish.  The Catholic Church has spoken and taught Truth from the time of the apostles to us.  Even with all our scoundrels and all our scandals, it has not changed one iota of the Gospel of Christ.  When someone says the world is flat, I immediately turn off from that person because he sounds ridiculous and a cad.  I must say I feel the same way when someone tries to debate there is no Hell.  

 

Good day 

Except not. From Hans Urs Von Balthasar ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Urs_von_Balthasar ) highly noted and influential Catholic theologian of the 20th century (was elevated to Cardinal for his work) disagreed on the eternal nature of hell punishment moreover in his book: "Dare We Hope: "All Men Be Saved". Also from Origen of Alexandria and Gregory of Nyssa, two cited and revered early church fathers for their traditional and reliable doctrine, rejected the eternal nature of hell punishment. There is also in fact not much of a case to make that hell punishment is eternal, moreover from the Bible, as the "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" points out, also pointing out that it was very much tradition in the Catholic Church to pray for the relief of those in hell well into the 14th century at very least. It is also traditional Catholic theology to admit that purgatory, limbo of the fathers, and limbo of the infants is a subset of hell... of which at very least two were not eternal.

But I did not say there was 'no hell'. I also note that is ridicule of another's beliefs, even if only a strawman which makes it a bit worse, which I believe is a violation of Phatmass' guidelines.
 

Edited April 17, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman