death penalty justifiable?

[linate]

i know john paul said the death penalty should be so rare as to almost be nonexistant, but some conservatives like to push the issue. 

i think a fundamental issue, are we okay with being revengeful? that's the bottom line of it. you can spin it as justice, but it's revenge. 

and, i usually dont attribute a greater power to the government than to an individual, in morals. if it's immoral for a person to exact revenge, it is for the government too.  i can see not pushing the issue for guys who cause major tragedies, but it's probably true there too. 

there is also the practical point that it costs more to execute them, given the lengthy court battles etc. i mean, this doesn't have to be a practical point, cause at least in theory the death penalty could be more seamless and as simple as a bullet in the head. but it is a point nonetheless. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Thou shalt not kill. 

And yeah it is vengeful, eye for eye tooth for tooth. I believe in life in prison and compulsary educational programs in jails so there not hanging around doing nothing, some perhaps don't like to do anything so they get locked up. Its easy food, bed, cleaners etc.

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[GreenScapularedHuman]

Quote

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now Francis have continued such a line of social teaching... Pope Francis somewhat recently as memory serves has said:

Quote

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/10/11/pope-francis-death-penalty-contrary-gospel
Pope Francis declared today that the death penalty is “contrary to the Gospel.” He said that “however grave the crime that may be committed, the death penalty is inadmissible because it attacks the inviolability and the dignity of the person.” 

“One has to strongly affirm that condemnation to the death penalty is an inhuman measure that humiliates personal dignity, in whatever form it is carried out. And [it] is, of itself, contrary to the Gospel, because it is freely decided to suppress a human life that is always sacred in the eyes of the Creator, and of which, in the final analysis, God alone is the true judge and guarantor,” Pope Francis said.

The opinion of the Catholic Church on criminal justice seems to favor mildness, forgiveness, proportionality, humaneness, rehabilitation, restoration, reconciliation, and human liberty/dignity while opposing harsh, unforgiving, excessive/punitive, and incapacitation that does not leave open the possibility of rehabilitation, restoration, reconciliation, and most of all that does not safeguard human liberty/dignity.

To put it very simply it would seem that the Catholic Church's position on justice is fundamentally contrary to that of the United States' moreover the 'tough', 'harsh', and 'war on' crime movement. The United States whole system of justice is very much predicated on the idea of incapacitation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice#Theories_of_sentencing or at least it has been for quite some time.

Personally... I favor a system that looks a lot more like the Nordic and in particular Norwegian system of corrections. The death penalty and life sentences abolished, the maximum sentence possible for any (and all) offenses 20 years (but with the possibility for very serious offenses to be indefinite which will mean the sentence will only end when the person is either of course paroled or found reasonably rehabilitated). Conditions of jails and prisons are very humane and comfortable, generous assistance programs exist for those in and out of incarceration including education, vocational, and rehabilitation programs. Jails and prisons are kept very local and spiritual/family/friend access to inmates is strongly encouraged and supported as well as family/conjugal visits (where for most inmates it means they can go to a separate housing area and spend about a day or so with their immediate loved ones). This system obviously only keeps those locked-up who are prioritized as more dangerous to society-at-large and most everyone else is kept in-community.

The system that Norway now enjoys was after they got serious on reforming their justice system only a few decades ago... and this system has seen a dramatic drop in crime and re-offending. Norway can now boast one of the lowest overall crime rates in the entire world.

I also favor the abolition of solitary confinement, moreover for minors and those with serious mental health matters... I favor joining the rest of the world in allowing prisoners to vote and even run for office. I also favor ending the life-long stigma of felony disenfranchisement supporting advocacy to increase a more socially forgiving, welcoming, and enabling culture. I also would favor giving the right to the immediate and direct victims of crime to grant clemency and requiring their consent/will for any/all prosecution with reasonable protections for them against undue encroachment.

Due to the fact that it is very unlikely to correctly and fully ascertain sureness of guilt in criminal cases, in fact studies have shown more persons whom the death penalty is sought are wrongfully even excessively prosecuted... so I would say on the first condition of the use of the death penalty it is not possible.

I would note that in America as well even in the most streamlined of systems like Texas it is very expensive to prosecute a death sentence... more so than life sentences. Also that due to the expense the judgment to seek the death penalty becomes unavoidably political and that only a handful of counties in the United States represent most death sentences.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Yeah Norway rocks. The new jail in my state, our first jail actually is based on rehabilitation not just incarceration. But the support on exiting the jail afterwards as far as I'm aware is non existant, 12-24 months peer support, job finding, counselling etc is nescisary, it should be a probationary period for any one that gets more then a stretch which I think is jail term for a 2 or more years sentance.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye