hell: they knew what they were doing

[linate]

i see the idea floated a lot that those in hell knew what they were doing.

it seems like people have different ways of thinking about this. the more fundamentalist they are, the more likely they are to just say "the bible says X" or mainstream christianity says X and people do differently, both would be chrisitans and others too. but then you have folks like eastern christians who are more prone to saying hell is more about being in God's presence and having that be an unpleasant expereince because your ways are dark. or otherwise specifically choosing a situation other than heaven or the way it is there.

what are ya'lls thoughts on this?

[GreenScapularedHuman]

My beliefs (if they can be called that) are very likely not Catholic.

Firstly, I don't believe the condemnation of hell is eternal (except for those who obstinately resist the restoration of God post-death)...

Quote

1 Peter 3:19-20
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

Arguing that the ark and flood prefigured the necessity of the church and baptism... yet those before the flood were disobedient, sinful, worldly, and faithless yet they are preached to by Jesus... implying to me that they can still be reconciled to God by Jesus even by preaching. If God could be so merciful then why not now?

Secondly, I don't believe in hell really (more like it is all purgatory, which traditional Catholic imagining is that purgatory is the upper-most part of hell) and I don't believe it is as torturous as imagined (at least I pray, moreover in the divine mercy chaplet when I do say it).

Thirdly, the Holy Spirit is often represented by fire in the Bible and to me those are the metaphorical fires of hell and purgatory, the love and healing of the Holy Spirit to those who resist is like torture but to those who accept it is merciful loving purification.

I think this whole topic likely should be moved to the debate section... and again I don't think this is at all reflective of Catholic theology or belief.
 

Edited February 22, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman
arc to ark

[GreenScapularedHuman]

Oh... and Fourthly, I don't believe anyone understands...
 

Quote

Luke 23:34
Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”

Jesus is speaking at very least about his crucifixion and death... but how they wouldn't of known seems (even to my skeptical standards) seems odd. Because they had Jesus in the flesh, heard him, were the most educated/pious people of their time, witnessed what he had done, but yet very deliberately and very premeditatedly (perhaps even maliciously and callously)... if they didn't know who can know? More broadly I think there is the argument to be made that he is referring to the sins of he whole world that put him on the cross.

Edited February 22, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman

[linate]

i like the cut of your slacks, scapular. a lot of catholic overtones but decidedly not really catholic. are you a former catholic?

[GreenScapularedHuman]

25 minutes ago, linate said:

i like the cut of your slacks, scapular. a lot of catholic overtones but decidedly not really catholic. are you a former catholic?

Raised Catholic... seriously considered the priesthood and started to study for it before abandoning it for various reasons... Leaned libertine (still do) living a secular educated and borderline outlaw life at times.

Like my father I have kept in my wallet a green scapular, a tradition from my great grandfather who was a staunch atheist but upon seeing he was going to die checked into a hospital as a Catholic... was baptized and received last rites... Why he kept a green scapular is a mystery but its very well established through family connections. Grandfather was a deist, but married a Catholic as such carried a green scapular, end of his life he reconciled to the Church. Father was a very liberal Catholic, he was more secular than anything else, but carried a green scapular with him, and at the end of his life received last rites despite frequenting the sacraments rarely. So... Could say its tradition in a sense.

Edited February 22, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman

[linate]

5 minutes ago, GreenScapularedHuman said:

Raised Catholic... seriously considered the priesthood and started to study for it before abandoning it for various reasons... Leaned libertine (still do) living a secular educated and borderline outlaw life at times.

Like my father I have kept in my wallet a green scapular, a tradition from my great grandfather who was a staunch atheist but upon seeing he was going to die checked into a hospital as a Catholic... was baptized and received last rites... Why he kept a green scapular is a mystery but its very well established through family connections. Grandfather was a deist, but married a Catholic as such carried a green scapular, end of his life he reconciled to the Church. Father was a very liberal Catholic, he was more secular than anything else, but carried a green scapular with him, and at the end of his life received last rites despite frequenting the sacraments rarely. So... Could say its tradition in a sense.

do you view being a liberal catholic as a dishonest way to approach it, or why didn't you choose that? i'm also curious about your views about Eastern Orthodox v catholic. not sure if you are super knowledgeable about church history and all that, though a lot is currently on the debate table.  this discussion would probably fit better in my 'catholic v orthodox' thread that i just posted. 

[GreenScapularedHuman]

26 minutes ago, linate said:

do you view being a liberal catholic as a dishonest way to approach it, or why didn't you choose that? i'm also curious about your views about Eastern Orthodox v catholic. not sure if you are super knowledgeable about church history and all that, though a lot is currently on the debate table.  this discussion would probably fit better in my 'catholic v orthodox' thread that i just posted. 

I glanced to the debate section and didn't see it?

I know more than I like about Catholic history, law, liturgy, theology, and so. But I am very far from knowledgeable I would say... perhaps humbly.

Liberal Catholic as dishonest? I would personally say no. I mean the history of the church has quite a diverse history in some regards. Like I can tell you that the early church practiced confessions communally and absolution given after penance (which could be long and harsh)... the Irish tradition of private confession and light penances emerged later. The church had some major issues with surgery, researching corpses, cremation, and suicide (used to be so that suicide victims would not be allowed a funeral mass or be buried in the church's cemetery) to now calling such science/medicine laudable and trusting persons who commit suicide to the mercy of God... also some major issues with lgbtqer matters which I would still say still has major issues with but has relaxed some... also religious liberty (which is a step further than previous intolerant and later religious tolerance endorsements), capital punishment (from necessary at times like Thomas Aquinas argued it was good for heretics to be put to death) to now where the Popes say that there is virtually no or absolutely no just cause for it, and I could go on... like the Papal States initial opposition to railroads and vaccinations. Some very anti-Jewish sentiments including ghettos which has lead way to endorsing the idea that they are not responsible for the death of Jesus among other things.

Progress I think touches even the Catholic Church...

Eastern Orthodoxy is rather broad community of communities... but I know the Catholic Church considers their sacraments valid and shares close ecumenism with them. I think its curious that they have a much more reverent but open practice of the sacraments... and more liberal interpretation like accepting divorce. I knew some very nice Eastern Orthodox girls, who had both Catholic and Orthodox parents even, and I think its very regretful that better unity and communion is not shared between these particular churches.

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman

[linate]

thanks for the input. the 'catholic v orthodox' thread i posted is in open mic if you have any other input. you sound very knowledgeable, which is usually reserved for the conservative catholics. in any case, your views would be appreciated by someone like me 

[GreenScapularedHuman]

6 minutes ago, linate said:

thanks for the input. the 'catholic v orthodox' thread i posted is in open mic if you have any other input. you sound very knowledgeable, which is usually reserved for the conservative catholics. in any case, your views would be appreciated by someone like me 

Catholicism is by its very nature traditional... and the Catholic Church is not known to change at all nonetheless quickly. But as you might guess I am very liberal and progressive moreover as I have aged.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Unsure why someone would choose hell if it is as terrible as I believe it to be.

I just believe people learn to ignore gods warnings to repent before they sin and then the signs to repent after.  Unsure people choose eternal damnation as much as they choose to deny God and if the consequence of this is hell then I think these have chosen to be separated from god/good, by choosing to not care much about the truth of good and evil.

Actually to be totally honest I wouldn't have a clue. I just know good is good and evil is evil, and if you love good you will do your best to serve the good not the evil.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Doesn't mean you won't fall into the traps of evil, but with the grace of god we can avoid the traps or reject them when they appear choosing virtue over sin, but if we do fall and are truly sorry we can receive absolution. Hell is a terrible place but God loves a tryer not only the supreme spiritual athlete, that what I like to believe anyway. Both are given the same grace just one is a slow learner or something, usually due to reasons known to god, a broken heart, no close family or friends that believe, and other reasons I'm sure I can't see.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

But also I base what is humanly good according to the virtues known to the church and what is evil as the seven deadly sins and breaking the commandments. And my reason why evil is evil is because it reduces my capacity to reach out and love others and makes me more selfish as in intreverted, unsure how but when I sin I don't really feel like helping anyone, it seems to disconnect me from the truth of love, in that I am loved by god and can love others, not that I go around with scruples that I'm damned and will be struck down any minute though I have experienced this in the past