shaving

[fides' Jack]

Thanks for the correction.  I do make mistakes, too, especially using "you're" instead of "your" when I'm typing quickly. 

I will add, there's a big difference between a typo, which I can overlook with others, and intentionally not using any capitalization, ever.

Edited February 22, 2018 by fides' Jack
Clarification on stance on issues of grammar

[SaintOfVirtue]

That is a capital offense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ba-dum-tss

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

was anything positive intended to come from this discussion? I'm asking because I'm failing to see what the positive purpose is, other to swat a hornets nest and have amusement from watching people run around, which is not really a positive at all.

[fides' Jack]

It's important, every once in a while, to swat that nest. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

The poor girl is interested to know what others think. Be Optimistic. Why be a bunch of deceptacon bullies assuming the worst.  one can choose to make it a hornets nest or chillax and discuss the possibilities of the discussed topic.

And allow our egos to be deflated to the correct level. Lol. Me to of course.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[havok579257]

I think her issue stems from the fact that people generally comment on how "ugly" a women is who doesn't shave.  Its not that they just don't like it on women, some people will go out of their way to make it know to the women they are "ugly" because they don't shave.  This is not cool.

 

At the end of the day the vast majority of people let society and media tell them what is attractive.  Its sad but true.  Also most of the beauty standards are from a man's point of view (I am a man by the way).  Until just recently it stereotypical beautiful women was the hour glass shape, with lots of makeup on, no blemishes,minimal fat and extremely seductive looking.  I mean just look how many women dress a certain way solely because its what the average man considered beautiful and they are trying to be seen as attractive to men.  Only recently has society begun to push back on this stereotype of beauty and say women with curves all over, who who are not nearly fat free, women who have imperfections and women who are on the larger side are beautiful.  Now a women can be beautiful in many different ways.  It didn't use to be like that.  Not since the moderinzation of visual media. I mean just look throughout history and see the different beauty standards and what was considered beautiful. It used to be very different.  

So while I think the OP may have come off as something different I would guess the intent was for people to stop judging women on their looks leave them alone instead of coming face to face and making comments about how "ugly" they are just because they don't conform to what the typical beauty standard has been.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

yes, havok you are correct. the point is that it is NOBODY's business to yell at or judge women for not shaving their bodies. women are equally beautiful with hairy, natural bodies as shaven, unnatural ones. each woman should be allowed to groom herself as she sees fit. 

 

men don't get to dictate to women how to take care of their bodies. 

[fides' Jack]

5 hours ago, havok579257 said:

I think her issue stems from the fact that people generally comment on how "ugly" a women is who doesn't shave.  Its not that they just don't like it on women, some people will go out of their way to make it know to the women they are "ugly" because they don't shave.  This is not cool.

 

At the end of the day the vast majority of people let society and media tell them what is attractive.  Its sad but true.  Also most of the beauty standards are from a man's point of view (I am a man by the way).  Until just recently it stereotypical beautiful women was the hour glass shape, with lots of makeup on, no blemishes,minimal fat and extremely seductive looking.  I mean just look how many women dress a certain way solely because its what the average man considered beautiful and they are trying to be seen as attractive to men.  Only recently has society begun to push back on this stereotype of beauty and say women with curves all over, who who are not nearly fat free, women who have imperfections and women who are on the larger side are beautiful.  Now a women can be beautiful in many different ways.  It didn't use to be like that.  Not since the moderinzation of visual media. I mean just look throughout history and see the different beauty standards and what was considered beautiful. It used to be very different.  

So while I think the OP may have come off as something different I would guess the intent was for people to stop judging women on their looks leave them alone instead of coming face to face and making comments about how "ugly" they are just because they don't conform to what the typical beauty standard has been.

I think there are multiple issues here.  There is a standard of beauty that men, in general, have for women (thought I disagree with the 'lots of makeup' statement).  That's not a bad thing.  Most men are not attracted to overly large women, if he were to give a 'rating' solely based on looks.  Most men are, in general, also much more willing to compromise on the physical attractiveness of a potential spouse than they are given credit for, as long as the woman has some semblance of virtue.  This isn't an issue that needs fixing, in my opinion.

Another issue that you're talking about is basically bullying.  I have never, ever known a male would would go up to a woman and call her physically ugly.  I can't imagine that happening.  I can imagine a scenario where she provokes that kind of insult...  Is this really something that women are having to deal with?  I guess I can see a woman who is obviously dressed or otherwise 'made-up' in a way that goes against accepted social norms - for instance, having a green mohawk - getting called ugly.  But in that case, it's not her physical body that they are calling ugly so much as it is her willingness to discard her own femininity, and, in effect, virtue.

19 minutes ago, ToJesusMyHeart said:

yes, havok you are correct. the point is that it is NOBODY's business to yell at or judge women for not shaving their bodies. women are equally beautiful with hairy, natural bodies as shaven, unnatural ones. each woman should be allowed to groom herself as she sees fit. 

 

men don't get to dictate to women how to take care of their bodies. 

Again, I don't see anyone, at least in Western culture, getting yelled at for not shaving.  It's probably happened a few times, just because of Murphy's Law, but it's gotta be few and far between.

I do disagree with the premise, also.  As long as the woman is living at home, she must abide by the wishes of her parents in this regard, as long as those wishes are not sinful.  After she leaves home, if she is not married, she can do whatever she wants to do.  Then again, within the confines of marriage, she must abide by the wishes of her husband.  So, typically, there is a short period of time when it is nobody's business.  The rest of the time, it is somebody's business.  This is all speaking morally, of course.  Legally women should have their own rights.

Another fact remains, that Havok brought up, that women have been conforming themselves to the whims of men for longer than history has been recorded.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just a natural thing.  And there's also the fact that if a woman refuses to conform herself in this way, she greatly lessens the chance of finding a potential suitor, at least in a crowd-type setting, just based on physical appearances.

[littlebell]

ToJesusMyHeart,  it's interesting that you are whining, once again, about people judging you, yet you used the term arse portal (and again, we know you meant what you really meant, a--holes) to describe people who did not share your point of view. You have never addressed this issue when I brought it up.  You are a hypocrite. You seem to have a desperate need to be validated by having people agree with you.

No one "yelled" at you. No one judged you. I expressed my opinion about not shaving and you couldn't tolerate a difference of opinion. I don't know you, so I can't judge you. I can judge your actions. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. 

So, let me again be very clear. You have the right not to shave. No one is coming after you with a razor to shave you. 

Stop whining and put on your big girl panties. 

[havok579257]

8 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

I think there are multiple issues here.  There is a standard of beauty that men, in general, have for women (thought I disagree with the 'lots of makeup' statement).  That's not a bad thing.  Most men are not attracted to overly large women, if he were to give a 'rating' solely based on looks.  Most men are, in general, also much more willing to compromise on the physical attractiveness of a potential spouse than they are given credit for, as long as the woman has some semblance of virtue.  This isn't an issue that needs fixing, in my opinion.

Another issue that you're talking about is basically bullying.  I have never, ever known a male would would go up to a woman and call her physically ugly.  I can't imagine that happening.  I can imagine a scenario where she provokes that kind of insult...  Is this really something that women are having to deal with?  I guess I can see a woman who is obviously dressed or otherwise 'made-up' in a way that goes against accepted social norms - for instance, having a green mohawk - getting called ugly.  But in that case, it's not her physical body that they are calling ugly so much as it is her willingness to discard her own femininity, and, in effect, virtue.

Again, I don't see anyone, at least in Western culture, getting yelled at for not shaving.  It's probably happened a few times, just because of Murphy's Law, but it's gotta be few and far between.

I do disagree with the premise, also.  As long as the woman is living at home, she must abide by the wishes of her parents in this regard, as long as those wishes are not sinful.  After she leaves home, if she is not married, she can do whatever she wants to do.  Then again, within the confines of marriage, she must abide by the wishes of her husband.  So, typically, there is a short period of time when it is nobody's business.  The rest of the time, it is somebody's business.  This is all speaking morally, of course.  Legally women should have their own rights.

Another fact remains, that Havok brought up, that women have been conforming themselves to the whims of men for longer than history has been recorded.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just a natural thing.  And there's also the fact that if a woman refuses to conform herself in this way, she greatly lessens the chance of finding a potential suitor, at least in a crowd-type setting, just based on physical appearances.

Actually if you look at what beauty has been throughout human history you will see men have been attracted to larger women.  In the Victorian era a women was considered attractive if she was large because it indicated wealth and if she was skinny it indicated she was poor.  just an fyi.

 

you haven't seen bullying with regards to women and their looks?  seriously?  did you go to high school?  do you know what social media is?  do you honestly not know anyone who was bullied for their looks?  its possible, i just find that hard to believe. i mean it happens nearly everywhere and in every corner of the world.  in schools, sports, jobs, media and so on.  its a reason women commit suicide.  i can't imagine any adult in this day and age in america could honestly say they have never seen a woman bullied because of their looks.

 

also how on earth can anyone on here, on phatmass be ok with what society at large accepts.  i mean look at what society deems as beautiful.  large chested, big bottom, half naked women.  i mean to see what society deems as acceptable all anyone needs to do is look at any form of people and you will see it deems women should be seen as a sex symbol for men.  i mean i am a man but its disgusting.  women are beaten to death by media that they should be a sex symbol for men.  if they are not and are ok with not being a sex symbol they are made out to be weridos and losers.  i mean for anyone on here to say we should go off of what society deems as beautiful is ridiculous in my book.

 

i also don't agree with the premise that a women living at home has to abide by her parents if its not sinful.  there are many ridiculous rules parents could put in place that are no sinful that I don't believe a women should have to follow.  i mean its not sinful for someone to not be on the internet or to not watch tv or not listen to the radio or to only wear pantaloons or so on and so on. none of those things are sinful but i don't agree that if a parent or husband made those requests a women should be forced to abide by those requests.  do you?

 

although should women have to conform themselves to what men want when since the dawn of media men have wanted an unrealistic example of a women.  one that is not achievable by the vast majority of women.  when men want a playboy cover model?  sure not all men but just turn the tv on and watch a commercial to see what men are looking for in a woman.  should women make themselves a sex symbol so they can abide by what the majority of men want? 

[fides' Jack]

10 hours ago, havok579257 said:

Actually if you look at what beauty has been throughout human history you will see men have been attracted to larger women.  In the Victorian era a women was considered attractive if she was large because it indicated wealth and if she was skinny it indicated she was poor.  just an fyi.

 

you haven't seen bullying with regards to women and their looks?  seriously?  did you go to high school?  do you know what social media is?  do you honestly not know anyone who was bullied for their looks?  its possible, i just find that hard to believe. i mean it happens nearly everywhere and in every corner of the world.  in schools, sports, jobs, media and so on.  its a reason women commit suicide.  i can't imagine any adult in this day and age in america could honestly say they have never seen a woman bullied because of their looks.

 

also how on earth can anyone on here, on phatmass be ok with what society at large accepts.  i mean look at what society deems as beautiful.  large chested, big bottom, half naked women.  i mean to see what society deems as acceptable all anyone needs to do is look at any form of people and you will see it deems women should be seen as a sex symbol for men.  i mean i am a man but its disgusting.  women are beaten to death by media that they should be a sex symbol for men.  if they are not and are ok with not being a sex symbol they are made out to be weridos and losers.  i mean for anyone on here to say we should go off of what society deems as beautiful is ridiculous in my book.

 

i also don't agree with the premise that a women living at home has to abide by her parents if its not sinful.  there are many ridiculous rules parents could put in place that are no sinful that I don't believe a women should have to follow.  i mean its not sinful for someone to not be on the internet or to not watch tv or not listen to the radio or to only wear pantaloons or so on and so on. none of those things are sinful but i don't agree that if a parent or husband made those requests a women should be forced to abide by those requests.  do you?

 

although should women have to conform themselves to what men want when since the dawn of media men have wanted an unrealistic example of a women.  one that is not achievable by the vast majority of women.  when men want a playboy cover model?  sure not all men but just turn the tv on and watch a commercial to see what men are looking for in a woman.  should women make themselves a sex symbol so they can abide by what the majority of men want? 

Thanks for responding. 

Actually, I used the term "overly large women".  An article just came out that was posted in a lot of the major news outlets discussing the problem of obesity.  Humanity is fatter than it ever has been before.  The terms "skinny" and "fat" are very subjective.  In the past, a person like Marilyn Monroe (who is the example always used for this same argument) was called "skinny", and was generally considered sexually attractive to most men.  These days, she'd be considered heavy or chubby. 

No, I didn't go to a public high school, though I would imagine that most girls who get bullied there are bullied by other girls.  I did go to college, and women weren't bullied there.  I'm not on Facebook or Twitter or any of those other avenues of social media.  I did not say I didn't know anyone who was bullied for their looks.  Maybe the fact that you're seeing this everywhere is more evident of the people/places/things you choose to associate with than ignorance on my part.

I also didn't say that I'm OK with what society at large accepts.  That's a preposterous statement.  I did imply that I'm OK with the natural, God-given instincts that men and women have with regards to behavior toward each other.

If a parent has told a child to not watch TV or not be on the internet, then it is absolutely sinful for the child to disobey.  What you believe is irrelevant.  If you are Catholic, then you must accept the authority of the Church.  CCC: 

Quote

2217 As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord."22 Children should also obey the reasonable directions of their teachers and all to whom their parents have entrusted them. But if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so.

Do you think it's morally wrong for a young woman to shave her legs, if she doesn't feel like it? 

The media uses lust to sell products.  That's it.  Period.  That's not what anyone truly wants.  Not sure why this is brought up...?  Unless you think women conforming themselves to make themselves attractive to men is the same thing as making themselves objects of lust.  That's obviously not the case.

18 hours ago, littlebell said:

ToJesusMyHeart,  it's interesting that you are whining, once again, about people judging you, yet you used the term arse portal (and again, we know you meant what you really meant, a--holes) to describe people who did not share your point of view. You have never addressed this issue when I brought it up.  You are a hypocrite. You seem to have a desperate need to be validated by having people agree with you.

No one "yelled" at you. No one judged you. I expressed my opinion about not shaving and you couldn't tolerate a difference of opinion. I don't know you, so I can't judge you. I can judge your actions. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. 

So, let me again be very clear. You have the right not to shave. No one is coming after you with a razor to shave you. 

Stop whining and put on your big girl panties. 

Let's show a little more kindness and compassion, even if it isn't warranted.  (referring to your remark about underwear)

I'm guessing (could be wrong) that there's a fiddler that changes "a__hole" to "arse portal".  I know Dust has done that with similar terms in the past.  So, it was probably originally written the way it obviously was intended to mean.  Just an FYI.

One more thing...  can we please use proper capitalization?  Please?!  We're adults, for crying out loud.  We're not in kindergarten.  

[havok579257]

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

Thanks for responding. 

Actually, I used the term "overly large women".  An article just came out that was posted in a lot of the major news outlets discussing the problem of obesity.  Humanity is fatter than it ever has been before.  The terms "skinny" and "fat" are very subjective.  In the past, a person like Marilyn Monroe (who is the example always used for this same argument) was called "skinny", and was generally considered sexually attractive to most men.  These days, she'd be considered heavy or chubby. 

No, I didn't go to a public high school, though I would imagine that most girls who get bullied there are bullied by other girls.  I did go to college, and women weren't bullied there.  I'm not on Facebook or Twitter or any of those other avenues of social media.  I did not say I didn't know anyone who was bullied for their looks.  Maybe the fact that you're seeing this everywhere is more evident of the people/places/things you choose to associate with than ignorance on my part.

I also didn't say that I'm OK with what society at large accepts.  That's a preposterous statement.  I did imply that I'm OK with the natural, God-given instincts that men and women have with regards to behavior toward each other.

If a parent has told a child to not watch TV or not be on the internet, then it is absolutely sinful for the child to disobey.  What you believe is irrelevant.  If you are Catholic, then you must accept the authority of the Church.  CCC: 

Do you think it's morally wrong for a young woman to shave her legs, if she doesn't feel like it? 

The media uses lust to sell products.  That's it.  Period.  That's not what anyone truly wants.  Not sure why this is brought up...?  Unless you think women conforming themselves to make themselves attractive to men is the same thing as making themselves objects of lust.  That's obviously not the case.

One more thing...  can we please use proper capitalization?  Please?!  We're adults, for crying out loud.  We're not in kindergarten.  

 

its not that I am associating with bullies, its the fact if you watch the news or read the news you see many young children commit suicide because they were bullied.  women get bullied by men and women about their weight.  also women aren't just bullied by other women in high school or middle school.  they are bullied by cliques of people.  guys and girls will pick on the slightly large girl because of her weight.  its not like this is not common knowledge.  just spend 5 minutes on the internet and see.  also since the advent of social media more and more bullying occurs and its not just separated by genders.

 

if people were going off of their God given instincts it would be one thing, but that's not what is happening.  people are judging others looks based off of what the media tells them looks good.  its been that way since modern media was going strong.  if people used their own instincts then people/men would not expect women to conform to what the different forms of media tell them looks good.  i mean if you shop at a supermarket its nearly impossible not to notice it.  all those magazines at the register as you wait in line about this celebrity gain 10-15 pounds or such and look at how big she is.  some of the magazines show close ups of women's legs with slight cellulite on it when they are at the beach.  these women are by no means fat and I would guess in better shape the majority of american women.  yet they are mocked because they have some slight cellulite on their body.  that's an example of people not using their own instincts to say what is attractive but instead use the beauty standards the media pushes.

 

Why on earth would I think its morally wrong for a women to shave her legs if she wanted to? That makes no sense at all.  I don't know how you got that from my assertion that a women should not be mocked for choosing not to shave.

 

I mean here is the thing about women shaving.  its a relatively new thing.  it only started in the 1900's.   around the 1920's and 1930's.  so throughout history excluding the last 100 years or less women haven't shaved.  this cultural norm people talk about has been around less than 100 years.  the only reason shaving started was because of women's clothes getting shorter. shirt sleeves and dresses and skirts.  so throughout human history men have been just fine with women who didn't shave. only in the last 100 years has this become a thing. kind of around the time media started to go strong and really started to sexualize women and tell men and women what a good looking women is supposed to look like. 

 

one final thing about the capitalization, who cares.  i mean this is the internet.  its the same as someone texting with abbreviated words. it doesn't matter.  capitalization, grammar, spelling and punctuation don't matter on an internet forum. its really not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things as long as the person who is typing gets their point across.  just let it slide, its not worth the amount of time you have already given it. 

2 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

 

If a parent has told a child to not watch TV or not be on the internet, then it is absolutely sinful for the child to disobey.  What you believe is irrelevant.  If you are Catholic, then you must accept the authority of the Church.  CCC: 

 

As it pertains to this portion, I guess I did not make myself clear.  What I am implying by is a parent giving a rule to a child that may not be sinful in itself but is done purely for spite.  An example would be although it is not sinful for a child to sit in a corner from the moment they got home from school until they went to bed, if it was being done for spite by the parent it would not be for the good of the family and child.  Or a parent who bars one child for tv, internet, music and all forms of entertainment while they themselves enjoy those forms of entertainment and are only doing it to spite the child.  so while its not sinful in itself to not have any of those forms of entertainment, it would not be for the good of the child and/or the family for a parent to deny the child those things which they partake in simply out of spite.

[Norseman82]

In favor of shaving: 

 

 

[tinytherese]

ToJesusMyHeart, with all due respect, this is what I understand. It was asked what people thought of women not shaving and some men responded that women could do what they wanted in regard to this, but they personally find women who shave to be more physically attractive to them. 

[tinytherese]

There's a difference between being ugly and not being physically attracted to someone. Being ugly means that people don't want to look at you because you look awful. That's an extreme. There's a wider scale in appearance than simply hideous and gorgeous. 

Preferences for attractive physical features aren't just something that guys have and even then, not all members of the same sex agree on features. Some women don't find men with beards or mustaches appealing, while others like their men rugged, and others don't care. 

If you're called to marriage and you don't shave your legs, then your type of man won't object to it.