Mental Illness, Politics, and Guns

[little2add]

there has never been a serious educational campaign to inform people about the symptoms of serious mental illness (other than depression) or who is most at risk. In contrast, every parent knows the signs and symptoms of drug or alcohol abuse.

Expecting a person with acute symptoms of mental illness to make rational decisions about their treatment is like asking a person in a wheelchair to get up and walk to the rehabilitation center. They cannot.

Why does it take a tragedy recognize that our mental health system is hopelessly bogged down with legal, economic, and ideological barriers that make it difficult, or even impossible, for a mentally ill persons to get appropriate care with unacknowledged mental illness?

Should the perpetrators of hate crimes, drug use (illegal or prescribed) be made known to the public?  Currently privacy laws do not allow personal health information to be made public.  This needs to be changed when criminal behavior is involved.

Thoughts?

Edited February 15, 2018 by little2add

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I've suffered from a mental illness for a long time but I don't believe it is the cause of my bad behavior at times, it is recreational drugs and alcohol that have caused my bad brahaviour, take away the drugs and alcohol and I start making more rational decisions like daily study of scripture, daily rosary, regular mass attendance etc. 

I think the question to ask is whether the person has a mental illness or drug and alcohol psychosis and if category 2 how to get them clean and sober and stay clean and sober. Many drink and use drugs because of post traumatic stress. I only have one answer and that is a big load of t.l.c and prayer from those that aren't affected by drugs and alcohol but in most cases a stint in rehab is required first, there is little to no support once out of jail or rehab, this perhaps is the key, many of these men and women feel alienated from society, defective and looked down upon so they continue to rebel against a society they believe has abandoned them, or can't or won't understand there traumatic lives. And there lives usually are terribly traumatic. 

They need an experience of Christ's love and conversion as I believe without Jesus and the community of the faithful they will not stay clean and sober when trouble comes, they need faithfulness from good people till the very end, these are the weak amongst us and need that extra special touch of grace. Only love changes people. Though I still believe jail is nescisary for the violent and sexual predators. But better programs of recovery are needed in jails and exit srategies, employment and good people to take them under there wing.

[little2add]

9 hours ago, Tab'le De'Bah-Rye said:

take away the drugs and alcohol and I start making more rational decisions

psychotropic drugs may be a big factor influencing these mad men who viciously and indiscriminately murder innocent children or adults.  The gun used in recent massacre in Florida should never of been in his hands.  People on psychotropic drugs should have to disclose the treatment on or when applying for a gun permit.

 The Florida maniac not only legally acquired an assault rifle,  he was also visited by the police over 38 times in the last three years for unstable  conduct but was never arrested, hence, his gun permit was approved.  Apparently in Florida you can act crazy violent  and threatening and not be arrested as long as you don't actually commit a crime.

 

 

[Hna.Caridad]

"Apparently in Florida you can act crazy violent  and threatening and not be arrested as long as you don't actually commit a crime."

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that this is the case all over the United States (not just in Florida)--the police can't arrest people unless they commit (or are very strongly suspected of committing) an actual crime.  Personally, I really wouldn't want to live in a country in which the police could detain people who haven't committed crimes.

Unfortunately, there's a very powerful lobby in the United States right now that would like to see anyone and everyone have the ability to purchase any gun at any time.  Unless and until the politicians are willing to stand up to that lobby, anyone and everyone will have the ability to purchase any gun at any time.

 

[CatherineM]

I left my rifle in Florida. My husband has schizophrenia, and those drugs make his life bearable. He was afraid if he got sick he might use my rifle. 

[A Yearning Heart]

Depending on the state here in Australia, there are provisions for a person to be reported to a mental health team if they are acting erratically or such to indicate they are in real mental distress and need treatment. The team can check on them, and if needed, admit them for mental health ward. 

Ideally, that would work but unfortunately, the stress on that process is hugh (not enough funds, not enough resources). 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

A new law also was passed in Australia called 'affray' unsure if I've spelt it correct but you now can be arrested for raising your voice in a threatening manner in public. I don't think yelling at anyone anywhere anytime is good. I'm more mindful of this now as one of my diagnosis is pschizo affective which can lead to bouts of rage.

[polskieserce]

Why are you actually surprised that this happened?  These kinds of issues have been debated on this forum time and time again.  The reason they keep happening is that many Americans are unwilling to pay higher taxes to adequately fund mental health services.

I have a non-verbal, severely autistic brother.  He requires constant care and 24/7 supervision.  He ended up having to be institutionalized due to his aggressive behavior.  When he was a young child, there were people who came to work with him at home, but it was a total joke.  The people working with him were fresh out of college, had little/no experience working with autistic children, and would play with their phones a lot during the therapy sessions.  The turnover rate for those people was very high.  They only got paid slightly more than minimum wage.

How on Earth is the current system supposed to deal with semi-functional people like the Florida shooter when it can't even handle severely dysfunctional people like my brother?

[CatherineM]

Florida has a law called the Baker Act that allows for someone to be picked up involuntarily for a three day assessment. I used it many times with my former roommate. 

[linate]

this is a valid stand alone topic. but id caution about focusing on mental health and not proper gun control. other countries have the same mental health problems we have, but they dont have such a gun problem. and that follows for other theories of factors people push. the only variable that explains how we are so different is our outrageous amount of guns. excessive guns, excessive mass shootings and deaths. people like to say guns aren't the problem, but they kinda are. of course it's human evil at the heart, but that's missing the point. 

more on the above...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

[GreenScapularedHuman]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

To summarize a bit of the article. Mentally ill populations are not more likely to be criminal and/or violent, in fact a preponderance of evidence suggests that (when separate from substance abuse/addiction matters) they are less likely to be criminal and/or violent when compared to generally mentally healthy populations, and more likely to be victims of crime, violence, and/or discrimination. Cases where mental health had a significant impact on crime and/or violence (even though uncommon among the mentally ill population) there is history of abuse, neglect (moreover of mental health care), and lack of support/assistance.

There is very regretfully a prevalent social climate of ableism, mentalism, sanism, and psychophobia which is reinforced by less-than-excellent journalism, entertainment, common misconceptions, education, and awareness. It becomes so easy to imagine criminals as 'sick' and perhaps they are in a sense 'sick' but when regarding actual mental disorders most criminals do not have a mental health diagnoses AND there is no mental disorder that causes crime/violence nor has it as a symptom. Even those afflicted with 'anti-social personality disorder' are not necessarily criminal or violent. The general public also fears more violence and crime resulting without articulate and reasonable causes that is random and senseless than crimes that have more understandable causes.

Better and more proactive holistic mental health care (that goes beyond just medication) likely could go a long way to preventing crime and rehabilitating offenders. Mental health awareness, literacy, education, hygiene, self-care, first-aid, early interventions, and reforming the social landscape would also likely help. Along with advocacy that prevents and minimizes malattitudes of ableism, mentalism, sanism, and psychophobia while endorsing neruodiversity (Merciful treatment and/or consideration of those with tolerable behavioral/attitude differences even if they may be symptomatic of mental health matters). Moreover because the stigma and less-than-healthy malattitudes do not encourage mentally ill persons to seek help.

Because the cost and accessibility of mental health care in America is a major impediment that remains a legitimate area of reform. Also social assistance that helps integrate and accommodate mentally ill persons positively encouraging them to have full lives as much as possible would likely help. Because as the article concludes poor socioeconomic circumstances and youth still remain better and more likely predictors of crime and violence.

[linate]

9 hours ago, GreenScapularedHuman said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

To summarize a bit of the article. Mentally ill populations are not more likely to be criminal and/or violent, in fact a preponderance of evidence suggests that (when separate from substance abuse/addiction matters) they are less likely to be criminal and/or violent when compared to generally mentally healthy populations, and more likely to be victims of crime, violence, and/or discrimination. Cases where mental health had a significant impact on crime and/or violence (even though uncommon among the mentally ill population) there is history of abuse, neglect (moreover of mental health care), and lack of support/assistance.

There is very regretfully a prevalent social climate of ableism, mentalism, sanism, and psychophobia which is reinforced by less-than-excellent journalism, entertainment, common misconceptions, education, and awareness. It becomes so easy to imagine criminals as 'sick' and perhaps they are in a sense 'sick' but when regarding actual mental disorders most criminals do not have a mental health diagnoses AND there is no mental disorder that causes crime/violence nor has it as a symptom. Even those afflicted with 'anti-social personality disorder' are not necessarily criminal or violent. The general public also fears more violence and crime resulting without articulate and reasonable causes that is random and senseless than crimes that have more understandable causes.

Better and more proactive holistic mental health care (that goes beyond just medication) likely could go a long way to preventing crime and rehabilitating offenders. Mental health awareness, literacy, education, hygiene, self-care, first-aid, early interventions, and reforming the social landscape would also likely help. Along with advocacy that prevents and minimizes malattitudes of ableism, mentalism, sanism, and psychophobia while endorsing neruodiversity (Merciful treatment and/or consideration of those with tolerable behavioral/attitude differences even if they may be symptomatic of mental health matters). Moreover because the stigma and less-than-healthy malattitudes do not encourage mentally ill persons to seek help.

Because the cost and accessibility of mental health care in America is a major impediment that remains a legitimate area of reform. Also social assistance that helps integrate and accommodate mentally ill persons positively encouraging them to have full lives as much as possible would likely help. Because as the article concludes poor socioeconomic circumstances and youth still remain better and more likely predictors of crime and violence.

 

changing the subject, but an agnostic that is into the green scapular? how does that work? a theist would be expected for that sorta thing

[GreenScapularedHuman]

5 hours ago, linate said:

 

changing the subject, but an agnostic that is into the green scapular? how does that work? a theist would be expected for that sorta thing

With respect to the OP and other posters I won't derail too much into this here. But to put it simply I am a religious pluralist https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religious-pluralism/ and profound skeptic (in the philosophical-scientific-academic sense) https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism/. To put it more simply I am not so much an 'agnostic-atheist' and I lean more 'agnostic-theism' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism & https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skeptical-theism/.

I wouldn't call myself a 'Catholic' (for a lot of reasons and to also to avoid confusion/offensive) but lately I have found myself drawn back to some prayers and the Sacraments... So I put my faith and my hand like a child in Our Lady's and ask her to take care of what my human limitations and defects are taking me to her Son.

[little2add]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:58 PM, GreenScapularedHuman said:

Mentally ill populations are not more likely to be criminal and/or violent

anyone who walks into a building and randomly murders innocent bystanders for no reason is mental ill

 

 

 

It’s sadly apparent that the United States of America is paralyzed with political indecision over something the State of Israel figured out more than 40 years ago: all schools should have mandated security features and active shooter protocols.    Guards don’t just stand around.  They check everyone entering, and engage threats.   And yes, they’ve got guns.   The lawful purposes for carrying guns are very clear: protect school personnel and students, create a sense of security, deter the ill-intentioned, and provide self-defense. 

It is common sense except to democrats  who claim that “adding guns to schools won’t fix anything” and are fixated on the NRA and the ridiculous notions that gun laws magically stop criminals and crazy people from obtaining one of the 300 million guns in our country.  Israel’s Police Community & Civil Guard Department have a preventative care program that encourages safe behavior and offers violence protection strategies in normal situations.  Students are also trained in how to respond to an active shooter situation.  

America does earthquake drills, why not active shooter drills?   More kids have been killed by shooters than earthquakes.”

Edited February 18, 2018 by little2add

[GreenScapularedHuman]

5 hours ago, little2add said:

anyone who walks into a building and randomly murders innocent bystanders for no reason is mental ill

That is not supported by the science and art of psychiatry, psychology,  sociology, nor criminology. Mental illness in a medical sense has a specific meaning. When you equate mental illness with random senseless acts (which most offenses even that seem random and senseless really aren't) it makes mental health matters something that it is very not. So.. if mental illness is the primary cause WHY is the overwhelming supermajority of the mentally ill in America NOT committing such acts?

Quote

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/

The public are no less accustomed to 'experiencing' violence among the mentally ill, although these experiences are mostly vicarious, through movie depictions of crazed killers or real life dramas played out with disturbing frequency on the nightly news. Indeed, the global reach of news ensures that the viewing public will have a steady diet of real-life violence linked to mental illness. The public most fear violence that is random, senseless, and unpredictable and they associate this with mental illness. Indeed, they are more reassured to know that someone was stabbed to death in a robbery, than stabbed to death by a psychotic man (7). In a series of surveys spanning several real-life events in Germany, Angermeyer and Matschinger (8) showed that the public's desire to maintain social distance from the mentally ill increased markedly after each publicized attack, never returning to initial values. Further, these incidents corresponded with increases in public perceptions of the mentally ill as unpredictable and dangerous.

One way of approaching this issue is ask who are the most likely targets of violence by the mentally ill: members of the general public or members of their close personal networks? Most recent studies suggest that violent incidents among persons with serious mental disorders are sparked by the conditions of their social life, and by the nature and quality of their closest social interactions (29). In the MacArthur Violence Risk Assessment Study (1), for example, the most likely targets of violence were family members or friends (87%), and the violence typically occurred in the home. Discharged patients were less likely to target complete strangers (10.7%) compared to their community controls (22.2%). Similarly, in a social network study that followed 169 people with serious mental disorder over thirty months (30), violence most frequently erupted in the family when relationships were characterized by mutual threat, hostility, and financial dependence; when there was a diagnosis of schizophrenia with concurrent substance abuse; and when outpatient mental health services were used infrequently. Of the over 3,000 social network members studied, only 1.5% were ever targets of violent acts or threats.

To put it very simply such incidents from those with mental health matters is rare and appears to be less than generally mentally healthy populations. As I cited and bolded/underlined above mental health patients were significantly less likely to target complete strangers than generally mentally healthy persons.

I could go on ad nauseam... But with all respect, sensitivity, and compassion to you, your preferences and views, would you be willing to exchange 'mentally ill' with 'deranged'?  It is a more polite and politically correct term which makes the distinction that we are not talking about the mentally ill as much as we are saying that there was something not so very right about the person's judgment. I suspect this is more what you meant (and what many people mean) when they try to relate mental health to such crime (moreover terrible crime).



Regarding your more political views I will respectfully disagree... there isn't much evidence that it would necessarily decrease the frequency of mass shootings in America. Which really regarding firearm related injury/death these incidents while deplorable and heart-wrenching is  statistically a very small aspect of the overall American challenges with firearms. I think this whole argument of arming schools (which glaze over the potential problems and complications due to such a proposition) ignores that many schools that do have armed officers have had attacks like this... and such armed officers did not change the outcome too much for various reasons. More aptly I would suppose is that such a proposal is a missing the forest from the trees... America has a major firearm problem and statistically these mass shootings are a very dramatic but minor part of it. A bit like adding fiddlers to cigarettes... sure it is marginally better than without but it doesn't quite solve the problem and it certainly doesn't prevent it.

Edited February 18, 2018 by GreenScapularedHuman
Corrected a word, fiddlers from fiddlers.