How the Traditional Doctrine of Hell Undermines Christian Character

[Era Might]

41 minutes ago, Seven77 said:

Maybe I'm just dense but I don't even "get" the poem.  It's actually an abstraction to me. Even the title. Owl in the Sarcophagus, that sounds like an Egyptian hieroglyphic etched on the inside of a tomb of a mummy. The best I can come up with is that the owl is the soul that flies away?

I'd say it's the opposite. There is no soul that flies away. The Egyptians created a living mythology of the dead, maybe more than anyone in history. In the world of the dead, in the sarcophagus, nature goes on. The corpses there are nameless, just an owl in the night, crying out, "Whoooooooooo?" As Stevens puts it, "Memory is the mother of us all." We stitch together human reality through memory, through the stories we tell. We are all living in stories. That's what all our religions are, stories. But "eternity" is a vastness of time-space that is even greater than the collected stories we tell. Stevens describes it as a quilt we stitch together, and all our small, little lives are just folds in the quilt. Our stories are, in some way, our trace in the universe. The Egyptians built mummies and put them in tombs and sarcophagi. And that act of religion was their record for eternity. You'll be dead. I'll be dead. Very few will remember us, probably nobody, anymore than we remember the names and faces and stories of the Egyptian dead. We remember the Egyptians, but only because of the mythologies they left behind, the stories. I don't believe there is any "self" in the sense of a transcendent soul. We are all the collections of our particulars. There is no "self" to find, no soul to survive. The earth goes back billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of years. And so will our skeletons. The idea that there is a God waiting to judge all those Egyptian corpses...to what end? Nothing we remember will be remembered or cared about, anymore than the Egyptians. All our petty arguments and all the things we fight for, they will all be gone eventually. Nature goes on, we don't. But our mythologies live on, and in some mysterious way, change the universe, because the universe is matter. There is no transcendent eternity. That's what I mean that we are space-time. The dinosaurs once were, and now are not. So will we be. Memory is the mother of us all, and just think of our own dead, our grandparents or people we know...how often do we think about them? Once in a while, but eventually, we forget about them too, we accept that they are gone, and so will we be, and everyone we know, and everything returns to what it is. Myths allow us to live forever, because they encapsulate all of us, without requiring that any of us survive. We are all Hamlet. We are all Christ. We are all Don Quixote. We are all Achilles. In a world of billions of years and who knows how much galactic space, that's all we have claim to. And it's not so bad, after all.

[linate]

well i guess i was jumping to conclusions on tortured for eternity. i should have said punished for eternity. the council of florence and many other quotes say infants without baptism go to hell, but the punishment varies. for that reason i shouldn't have necessarily said tortured. from what i can see those teachings are de fide, but i recognize that there are levels of teaching and haven't exactly looked into whether florence for instance was an ecumenical council.  the pop culture teachings say you can hope for the best but it looks like the formal definitions say otherwise, at the very least traditional understanding is all about punishing you for being born. 

well on a simple google search it looks like florence was ecumenical, so i dont know how the catholic church can try to pretend it's okay to hope for a decent afterlife for infants, as if that wouldn't go against it's original teaching, at least informally contradicting. 

[Seven77]

5 hours ago, Era Might said:

I'd say it's the opposite. There is no soul that flies away. The Egyptians created a living mythology of the dead, maybe more than anyone in history. In the world of the dead, in the sarcophagus, nature goes on. The corpses there are nameless, just an owl in the night, crying out, "Whoooooooooo?" As Stevens puts it, "Memory is the mother of us all." We stitch together human reality through memory, through the stories we tell. We are all living in stories. That's what all our religions are, stories. But "eternity" is a vastness of time-space that is even greater than the collected stories we tell. Stevens describes it as a quilt we stitch together, and all our small, little lives are just folds in the quilt. Our stories are, in some way, our trace in the universe. The Egyptians built mummies and put them in tombs and sarcophagi. And that act of religion was their record for eternity. You'll be dead. I'll be dead. Very few will remember us, probably nobody, anymore than we remember the names and faces and stories of the Egyptian dead. We remember the Egyptians, but only because of the mythologies they left behind, the stories. I don't believe there is any "self" in the sense of a transcendent soul. We are all the collections of our particulars. There is no "self" to find, no soul to survive. The earth goes back billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of years. And so will our skeletons. The idea that there is a God waiting to judge all those Egyptian corpses...to what end? Nothing we remember will be remembered or cared about, anymore than the Egyptians. All our petty arguments and all the things we fight for, they will all be gone eventually. Nature goes on, we don't. But our mythologies live on, and in some mysterious way, change the universe, because the universe is matter. There is no transcendent eternity. That's what I mean that we are space-time. The dinosaurs once were, and now are not. So will we be. Memory is the mother of us all, and just think of our own dead, our grandparents or people we know...how often do we think about them? Once in a while, but eventually, we forget about them too, we accept that they are gone, and so will we be, and everyone we know, and everything returns to what it is. Myths allow us to live forever, because they encapsulate all of us, without requiring that any of us survive. We are all Hamlet. We are all Christ. We are all Don Quixote. We are all Achilles. In a world of billions of years and who knows how much galactic space, that's all we have claim to. And it's not so bad, after all.

6

6

That sounds kind of bleak and depressing, doesn't it? Why is that the case?

We all have desires that cannot be fulfilled by anything here… Are you ever satisfied with anything? I'm not. It seems to me that we have infinite desires… And nature dictates that desires are met Or have the possibility of being met. Animals get hungry because they need food, they get thirsty, there is a way to get not thirsty, etc.

What's the point of nature going on,  what is the point of existence? And how do our mythologies change the universe, what is this mysterious way? Because, the universe is material, it's matter… Mythologies are not matter... Also, what is the point of a mythology that eventually fades out from collective memory? Ultimately, your premise that myths allow us to live forever doesn't hold up as you said eventually we forget peoples' stories?

So, you don't actually believe in the resurrection of Christ? Like, you don't think it actually happened, that it's just a story?  That people actually went to their deaths for mere stories? 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Seven77

[Era Might]

2 hours ago, Seven77 said:

That sounds kind of bleak and depressing, doesn't it? Why is that the case?

We all have desires that cannot be fulfilled by anything here… Are you ever satisfied with anything? I'm not. It seems to me that we have infinite desires… And nature dictates that desires are met Or have the possibility of being met. Animals get hungry because they need food, they get thirsty, there is a way to get not thirsty, etc.

What's the point of nature going on,  what is the point of existence? And how do our mythologies change the universe, what is this mysterious way? Because, the universe is material, it's matter… Mythologies are not matter... Also, what is the point of a mythology that eventually fades out from collective memory? Ultimately, your premise that myths allow us to live forever doesn't hold up as you said eventually we forget peoples' stories?

So, you don't actually believe in the resurrection of Christ? Like, you don't think it actually happened, that it's just a story?  That people actually went to their deaths for mere stories? 

I think the point, or meaning, of life is simply to pass it on. Our desires aren't things in themselves, they're just processes and interactions. The point of a desire isn't to be satisfied but to be accomplished so that we can keep moving. We get frustrated because we can't exercise our desires, but a desire is simply an energy or a need to do something, to eat and nourish, to procreate, to speak, etc. We have learned to control our desires, but we aren't perfect.

I agree we can never be satisfied, but I don't think it's because there is a personal God who ultimately satisfies us in a transcendent eternity, but because we are wholly material. We're like a ball of particles that is gradually expanding until all the particles break apart. Maybe it's just me, but the older I get, the more I appreciate that we are ultimately alone, we must face life and death alone. Not in the sense of not having other people, but that learning to live is learning to let go of everyone and everything. Age moves on us, and suddenly we realize that the stories we were raised in are not us. Our family are all their own people. They too will die alone. Is this bleak? If so, I think it's only because we cling to the idea of a self, that we are transcendent personalities. But I think we are all part of this universe, and we are all disintegrating...but for the moment, we are here. It's hard to say goodbye to life, but what else does it mean to be a man? Are we to weep forever because our mothers die? Our mothers' mothers died too. They went on without them, and so will we, and someone after us. Our stories endure to the extent that they ultimately are just the stories of nature. Plants rise and fall. Families grow and die. Asteroids burn out, mountains break apart. And the spirit of god still hovers over the waters.

Myths live forever because they create us, they are our record of our experience. Myths are what we do in the world. Yes, the world is material, but we have shaped it. The world was here before us. It's not just a matter of memory, we live our myths. Big and small myths. In our individual lives, our myths are patterned after our parents. We imagine ourselves in that context, I am the son of X, the daughter of Y, from the people of Z. There is no "self," everything we are is material, received. And I think that is the meaning of Christ, there is no self in Christ, there is only Christ who returns to the source, to the Father. All is Christ and Christ is all. I believe in this as myth, not literally, not that I think there's a man up in the clouds and a devil down in the earth's core.

What you did to the least of these my brethren, you did to me. I really believe that is the final judgment, the deepest truth, the deepest mythology. And it has nothing to do with a Platonic One and ascending to a transcendent world. All we have is this world, for a few short breathes. We sigh, we smile, and we break apart and life goes on as it has for ever, whatever it is, it is. Why do I have to stand apart from it, as if life needed me to justify it.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Era Might

[Guest]

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/can-gods-existence-be-proved

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/a-proof-of-the-existence-of-god

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/five-ways-or-five-proofs

I am not intelligent/educated enough by far nor motivated enough to enter into the quality of discussion in this thread, perhaps something in the above links will be an inspiration to someone else.

 Belief in God as Trinity, Father Son and Spirit. One God - and in Jesus as truly man and Truly God seems to be written into my DNA.  I have come very close indeed in the distant past to leaving Catholicism for one reason or another, except that I could not leave Jesus in The Blessed Eucharist - also seemingly in my DNA.  All through no effort nor reflection at all on my part - simply present seemingly always.  Starting from The Real Presence, The Blessed Eucharist and reflecting, all else false into place i.e. Catholicism.

Edited November 14, 2017 by BarbaraTherese

[Era Might]

9 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/can-gods-existence-be-proved

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/a-proof-of-the-existence-of-god

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/five-ways-or-five-proofs

I am not intelligent/educated enough by far nor motivated enough to enter into the quality of discussion in this thread, perhaps something in the above links will be an inspiration to someone else.

 Belief in God as Trinity, Father Son and Spirit. One God - and in Jesus as truly man and Truly God seems to be written into my DNA.  I have come very close indeed in the distant past to leaving Catholicism for one reason or another, except that I could not leave Jesus in The Blessed Eucharist - also seemingly in my DNA.  All through no effort nor reflection at all on my part - simply present seemingly always.  Starting from The Real Presence, The Blessed Eucharist and reflecting, all else false into place i.e. Catholicism.

Evelyn Waugh was a convert, wrote a famous Catholic novel Brideshead Revisited. One of the characters, Sebastian, is a young (gay) eccentric from an aristocratic Catholic family who carries around a stuffed bear. Eventually Sebastian ends up an alcoholic and a "straggler" at a monastery. Anyway, there's a scene that's always stuck with me, where Sebastian is challenged on his religion by Charles (his good atheist friend who ends up a Catholic), and Sebastian justifies his belief as a "lovely idea." Nothing more, nothing less. IMO, that's a better reason to believe than any. To sit before the tabernacle and feel at peace, it's a lovely idea...why add anything else to that. Nothing else can be more convincing.

 

Often, almost daily, since I had known Sebastian, some chance word in his conversation had reminded me that he  was a Catholic, but I took it as a foible, like his teddy-bear.  -We never discussed the matter until on the second Sunday  at Brideshead, when Father Phipps had left us and we sat in  the colonnade with the papers, he surprised me by saying: ‘Oh dear, it’s very difficult being a Catholic.’ 

‘Does it make much difference to you ? ’

'Of course. All the time.' 

‘Well, I can’t say I’ve noticed it. Are you struggling  against temptation? You don’t seem much more virtuous  than me.’ 

‘I'm very, very much wickeder,’ said Sebastian indignantly. 

‘Well then?’ 

‘Who was it used to pray, “O God, make me good, but not yet”?’ 

‘ I don’t know. You, I should think.’ 

‘Why, yes, I do, every day. But it isn’t that,’ He turned  back to the pages of the News of the World and said, ‘Another  naughty scout-master.’ 

‘ I suppose they try and make you believe an awful lot of  nonsense?’ 

‘Is it nonsense? I wish it were. It sometimes sounds  terribly sensible to me.’ 

‘But my dear Sebastian, you can’t seriously believe it all’ 

‘Can’t I?’ 

‘I mean about Christmas and the star and the three  kings and the ox and the ass.’ 

‘Oh yes, I believe that. It’s a lovely idea.’ 

‘But you can’t believe things because they’re a lovely  idea.’ 

‘But I do. That’s how I believe.’ 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Era Might

[Anomaly]

The purpose of life is to live it.   Now is all there is.   How well, and for what purpose to live our sole life is each of our own personal challenge.

I find the the thought of being intentionally created by a being, only to most likely exist in unimaginable horrific torment for eternity, a demented and sick myth.  

The hell we experience is what we experience now in this world.  The heaven we experience is now, in this world.  

What we do for, and to, each other and ourselves is the good and evil, the hell and heaven we will ever experience in our existence.  

Edited November 14, 2017 by Anomaly

[Anomaly]

With all it’s sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful. 

Strive to be happy.

That is the only heaven we may have. 

[Guest]

In the final analysis

one day we will not need to speculate. 

We will know for sure.

Atheist to God after death: "You are not supposed to be here - and neither am I!"

 

 I have lived a full and happy life here on earth, met some challenges along the way and overcome some, went under with others.  Should there be nothing after death, well then I have lived a happy and full life on earth with challenges along the way - after death I wont be able to regret even if I wanted to do so.  

If there is nothing at all after death?  Ok - you win.

I wrote a poem years ago and one line ran "and the tune which wins the game sung between womb and tomb, else judged useless".

9 hours ago, Anomaly said:

With all it’s sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful. 

Strive to be happy.

That is the only heaven we may have. 

It is indeed all about living what we have here and now i.e. life.   All about the living here and now summarises Jesus and His Gospel.

We all have concepts and opinions but they all remain the finite reflecting on the infinite. 

 

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Era Might said:

‘But you can’t believe things because they’re a lovely  idea.’ 

Of course, we can believe things because they are a lovely idea.  Why can't we?  That lovely idea just might be spot on.  "But I do, that's how I believe" seems to me to be spoken by that little child Jesus spoke about.  The interaction in Brideshead Revisited seems to me to be an interaction between that little child and the wisdom and wise of this world that Jesus spoke about, praising His Father - and I think that was what Waugh intended:

Matthew Ch11: "At that time Jesus said in reply, 14 "I give praise to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will."

10 hours ago, Era Might said:

To sit before the tabernacle and feel at peace, it's a lovely idea...why add anything else to that. Nothing else can be more convincing.

To sit before a Tabernacle completely at Peace with great Joy in the heart, is the complete experience and, indeed, a lovely idea for those who have not experienced it I suppose.  One would not (I don't think) desire to, nor be able to, speculate on anything else - unless..........well, just unless.

The speculation about heaven, hell and life after death would be in some other context.

[Guest]

Edit feature timed out:  Above should read "nor be able to, speculate.  Unless........well, just unless"

23 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

One would not (I don't think) desire to, nor be able to, speculate on anything else - unless..........well, just unless.

Trying to edit for accuracy of meaning.  The above should read :

"One would not (I don't think) desire to, nor be able to, speculate." 

Delete altogether: "on anything else - unless...........well just unless."

[Guest]

The fact that Sebastian is gay, has a teddy bear and comes from Catholic aristocracy ............ and that Charles exercises the wisdom of this world - later converts to Catholicism indicates that The Holy Spirit is not a snob and selective.  The Holy Spirit can appear in the most unlikely to us of places.  It also indicated to me that the wise of this world Jesus spoke about are Catholics sometimes too; that the little ones of great simplicity Jesus spoke about might be the most unlikely even the rejected in our midst.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Anomaly said:

The purpose of life is to live it.   Now is all there is.   How well, and for what purpose to live our sole life is each of our own personal challenge.

I find the the thought of being intentionally created by a being, only to most likely exist in unimaginable horrific torment for eternity, a demented and sick myth.  

The hell we experience is what we experience now in this world.  The heaven we experience is now, in this world.  

What we do for, and to, each other and ourselves is the good and evil, the hell and heaven we will ever experience in our existence.  

To my thought, certainly the evil and those who do evil are pointing and witnessing to the existence of a hell after death.

Just as the good and those who do good, some of them outstandingly so, point and witness to the existence of a heaven after death.

To my way of thinking again, if I took joy and delight in cruelty/punishment either in this world or the next, I would know that there was a deadly sickness in my soul and psyche somewhere.

A psalm in the Psalter of The Divine Office I once had great difficulty with :
 

Quote

 

"To execute vengeance upon the nations, chastisements among the people:

8To bind their kings with fetters, and their nobles with manacles of iron.

9To execute upon them the judgment that is written: this glory is to all his saints. Alleluia.

(Psalm 149)

 

I have to remind myself that Scripture inspired by The Holy Spirit is situated in a human context of a particular time.  Through God's Grace we move forward and transcended a particular time in the past. 

The other way I come to terms with it is that the kings and the nobles in the Psalm are my faults and failings and to strive to overcome them is an honour and privilege I have from God.  Praise The Lord!

[Guest]

To have a giggle at an article with humour as well as learn much interesting information and facts on the subject of salvation for all - and going back over many years, go to: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/2013/05/23/pope-francis-teaches-that-everyone-is-saved-wow-hold-on-wait-a-second/

Quote

"Unfortunately for those who wish to paint Pope Francis as a lovable liberal, in fact, the Pope is simply affirming certain truths that any somewhat knowledgeable Catholic will uphold. First, that Christ died to redeem the whole world. We can distinguish his redemptive work from the acceptance of salvation. He redeemed the whole world. However, many will reject that saving work. In affirming the universality of Christ’s redemptive work we are not universalists. To say that he redeemed the whole world is not to conclude that all will be saved.'

"Secondly, the Pope is also affirming that all humans are created in God’s image and are therefore created good. Yes, created good, but that goodness is wounded by original sin. Thirdly, he is affirming that all men and women are obliged to pursue what is beautiful, good and true. Natural virtue is possible–even obligatory, but natural virtue on its own is not sufficient for salvation. Grace is necessary to advance beyond natural virtue to bring the soul to salvation.

The Pope does not say atheists being good on their own will be saved. He says they, like all men, are redeemed by Christ’s death and their good works are the starting place where we can meet with them–the implication being “meet with them in an encounter that leads eventually to faith in Christ.”   (A type of encounter between Sebastian and Charles in Brideshead Revisited - in that both were being authentic)

Quote

 

Some amusing excerpts only from the article:

"Oops, sorry—that was actually Pope John Paul II, back in 1981 in Manila. Let’s see. Hold on a second. Try this:.............."

Whoops! That’s the Apostle Paul, writing a couple of thousand years ago to Timothy and Titus (1 Tim 2:3-6; Tit 2:11). My apologies. Here goes:

No, no, no. Wrong pope! That was Pope Leo XIII, back in 1891. How embarrassing that I cannot get my quotes right. I’m doing my best, I really am.

Nope, that’s Gaudiem et spes, from Vatican II (par 29).  Okay, okay, here is what Pope Francis really said, in part, yesterday:

 

 

26 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Through God's Grace we move forward and transcended a particular time in the past. 

Although we do tend to believe that our own time, its understandings, insights, wisdoms etc. are a full stop - to last forever from now on.  They aren't !

[mortiphy]

Cicero references Socrates' belief in that the soul of man ends in one of two destinations post mortem, for the good heaven, and for the evil hell. This is not a foreign concept, and Our Lord taught it.