Wolf Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 This is an issue I have debated a lot with my own wife and family. Very curious as to what people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linate Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 i would have chosen something between "submit in everything" and "it's irrelevant". i like the idea of deference better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 Yeah - perhaps I was a bit inflexible in the poll choices. It is, of course, a contentious subject and hotly debated, with lots of subtleties that can't be an either / or choice. But I hope to generate some good discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) Having received advice from a priest probably around 1974 that I must submit to my husband in all things, I went home and submitted totally to an emotionally abusive and unsupportive husband, finally an unfaithful one. I wound up on a psychiatric ward. This is what could happen potentially when a priest goes firmly by the book, refusing to consider the personal situation and journey with a person seeking advice. Edited October 21, 2017 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I thought this was something I’d never do. The longer we are married, the more I find myself appreciating the comfort in turning over control at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 Quote Having received advice from a priest probably around 1974 that I must submit to my husband in all things, I went home and submitted totally to an emotionally abusive and unsupportive husband, finally an unfaithful one. I wound up on a psychiatric ward. I'm sorry to hear this, Barbara. I know it can be a real issue for some people, and I do hope you've recovered from the experience now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Thank you, Wolf, for your kindness. I am long over it - it is now only a distant memory from what seems like another life time It happened now probably 40years or more ago and I have coped and come through the other side to get on with life - my sons have too although the scars and affect remains with them understandably. I am now 72 in Jan 2018. My two sons in their very early fifties. It was never about me it was about my two children - just coming into their teens - and their mother is in a psychiatric ward. Later my ex forced me out of our home and then divorced me. The marriage is now long annulled. He is now many years remarried. I maintain a friendship with him and his wife, as do my sons. When it all was sorted out as best it could be I think, I did learn much and grew through the experience. That was the positive side of a very negative situation. Reading @CatherineM post, it has occurred to me that perhaps what I went through is the reason I am an almost incurable control freak - for too long I allowed my then 'husband' to have absolute control. Perhaps. My primary point is that for a priest to advise a person approaching them for help of what the law states - and that is that - might, in the priest's mind, exonerate him of his duty (or does it?)- however, it can have far reaching negative affects on more than the person that approached him and their life, and it would include children and their lives if there are any children involved. Fortunately, I was in touch with a priest religious and theologian lecturing in our seminary and grew very close to him as my confessor and SD until his death. He helped me (journeyed with me) as I unravelled the whole situation and came to terms with it as I best I could, without him I would have a far different story I think. It was that priest that suggested I apply for annulment. I have wondered at times if the priest who laid down the law to me had acted differently, perhaps I would not have broken down and my children would not have had to go through the trauma that they did. Hindsight can be a gift and it can be cruel. Perhaps the priest felt inadequate and resorted to the law as a means of dealing with his personal situation - then, I think, he should have advised me of his difficulty. I think that "wives submit to your husbands" as a sweeping generalisation to be applied in all cases without exemption is faulted and indicates, or it has to me, that indeed the law cannot save (St Paul - Romans 7). The Law provides boundaries, while not unusual for life to be a messy situation outside those boundaries. The face is that human nature is indeed faulted and weak. We are sinners and sin means that to some degree one is outside those boundaries that The Law provides. One might be a little outside or one might be right outside in a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) Good to read the whole Chapter 3 and 4 of Colossians http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10M.HTM and get "wives obey your husbands" into context. Not only the wife has obligations in a marriage. Colossians 3 and 4 (not lengthy chapters) are all about relationships generally, not only the marital relationship. May God richly bless those marriages and relationships where both parties are striving to live good lives, holy lives - and may The Good God richly bless and provide the necessary guides and assistances for those marriages and relationships in a mess and struggling. Edited October 22, 2017 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 The Bible passage also says submit to their husbands in everything. ... However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. so ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Well said @little2add - not only the wife has very clear obligations in a marriage. so... ... what happens if one party in a marital relationship does not strive to live up to the standards of a Catholic Christian and with an overtly stated absence of desire to do so, rather hostility. And what if such a situation is affecting the children of the marriage. What is the way forward for the other partner after the negative partner has categorically refused marriage guidance etc. and all efforts to repair a broken relationship of mutual love, caring and respect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 34 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said: what happens unhappiness happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 22 minutes ago, little2add said: unhappiness happens ... for one ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said: . for one Both there can be no joy in a failed marriage how could there be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 My apologies, I meant that unhappiness is one result. What was prime for me and my example was what led to that state of unhappiness - unhappiness was a by-product of other factors. I guess that what I was hoping to lead to was the fact that life can get messy and outside boarders or The Law and what to do about it - in my example, what to do about the messy state I found my children and myself labouring in and that "wives obey your husband" is not applicable nor feasible as a generalisation in all instances. We do need SDs and advisors who are willing to journey with a person in the messiness and then out of it, much I guess as a psychiatrist or psychologist etc. does with his or her patients. A psychiatrist or therapist of some kind does not quote a law and that is that i.e. this way or the highway. I do think too that we need Catholic communities, parishes, that do not gossip and point fingers. I am very confident I am not the only person who has ever found their life turned upside down and messy - and with an ardent desire to somehow get the mess sorted out.........and it won't and isn't going to happen overnight. The other thing is that when one is in a mess probably the perfect solution is impossible to the weak and faulted sinner involved - rather it becomes a journey, a step by step journey, out of the mess and then hopefully into a more positive, feasible and even more perfect way of life. And we need educated people, spiritual people, willing to go on the journey with the person, wherever and however that journey for the sinner with Grace unfolds and takes the person, both of them actually. My priest religious theologian SD and confessor accompanied me on a step by step lengthy journey and where it all began to fall into place, I have no idea really. Close by my side at that time and through it all was a beloved Carmelite prioress I am still very close with today and she stayed close beside me through much no one else would I suspect, nor would I blame them one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 All our woe and misery because one woman refused to submit to her husband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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