NFL and the National Anthem

[dominicansoul]

16 minutes ago, havok579257 said:

This post shows me you have no clue what thelse protests are about other than what you have been told by the media.  Again I will restate since you must have missed it. The players are not protesting the flag or the anthem.  They have come out and said this. To claim they are when they have stayed they are not is ridiculous.  It's living in your own fantasy world and refusING to listen to anyone who has an opposing view from you. 

 

Here go we go again with the over reaction to things. Now kneeling for the anthem is akin to physically assaulting someones mother? It's not ok for liberals to over exaggerate things but it's ok for conservatives? 

 

Also here we go again with sweeping generalizations. Conservative players and owners can't support this cause unless they are cowards afraid of backlash. Im just wondering, do you have a book or something that outlines what a conservative can support and it be considered legit and not be considered cowardly? 

 

Oh and just a little fyi, it's not only guilty thugs who are being shot by police.  Also not all of your so called thugs deserved to be shot or beaten. An unarmed man does not deserve to be shot. Not all police brutality and shootings are just justified and not all are unjustified.  Neither sidea is right. Liberals over exaggerate it and conservative under exaggerate it. Although as to why it's an issue that someone protests this is beyond me.

To be fair, football is dying not because of this but because of science . The more we learn about CTE, the more parents are deciding against putting their children into football when they are young. In a few decades football will no longer be the number 1 sport in america. Youth participation is decreasing and will only continue to go down. 

 

There is only division in this country because both sides refuse to listen to the other side and just talk over each other. No longer can people disagree with each other on politics and still be friends.  Now if you don't support my party, your dead to me and we cut each other off. It's sad really.

havok, you're doing it again.  You aren't comprehending my post.  It's funny because you beesh and moan about sweeping generalizations and then you use sweeping generalizations.  

Anyways, I can NEVER have a conversation with you or debate points because you tend to put words in people's mouths.  I'm not going to keep repeating until you understand cos you don't even try to understand.  

22 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Just what unites this Country anymore? You can cross out football and the national anthem. Everywhere there is division. Football is dying, America and Western Civilization too. Nothing unites us anymore, there is nothing but division.

It's leftist politicizing and knocking out the fun in everything.  Pretty soon they'll be saying Apple Pie is racist.    

Edited September 27, 2017 by dominicansoul

[Anomaly]

Kaprnick knelt because he refused to stand for the flag and was widely criticized for sitting.     

Kap was very critical of the US, including the police, military, legal system, and economic system. 

That fact of the original intentional display of disrespect in protest cannot be easily dismissed by everyone.  Just because others say copying his actions doesn't mean the same, doesn't mean people don't perceive it that way   Just like the two perceptions of Confederate memorials. (They mean racism to some AND honor sacrifice to others)

 

Yes, it is his right to do so, but it is everyone's right to have an opinion about his opinions.  

Voicing opinions while you are at work is a different matter. Who wants to go to the 7-11 with We Hate Trump posters?   Would the manager make you take them down?  Can you ask the manager that you would prefer to buy your beer and Fritos without political opinions?

But when you get off work, you can take off your 7-11 uniform and stand in a corner with a Dump Trump sign.  

Being critical of political protest of an employee while you want to purchase beer or entertainment from them, is NOT being against free speech, nor is it the right of the employee to be able to inflict it on you during the transaction.  

Edited September 27, 2017 by Anomaly

[havok579257]

1 minute ago, dominicansoul said:

havok, you're doing it again.  You aren't comprehending my post.  It's funny because you beesh and moan about sweeping generalizations and then you use sweeping generalizations.  

You're thread on catholics putting politics first is an example of guess what?  sweeping generalizations.  

Anyways, I can NEVER have a conversation with you or debate points because you do this all the time.

It's leftist politicizing and knocking out the fun in everything.  Pretty soon they'll be saying Apple Pie is racist.    

The thing is, every time we talk and there is a point being made that you disagree with, its turns into the leftists are behind it?  Its always that.  Conservatives cant support anything your against or they will be labeled leftists. 

 

In your mind, your a leftists or a conservative coward if you kneel during the anthem in protest of police brutality.  Your a leftists or conservative coward if you are in support of these athletes to use their first amendment right to protest at their job when their bosses approve of what they are doing.  Your a leftist if you disagree with dominicansoul.

 

A couple honest questions for you. 

-Is it possible players and owners support this cause who are conservatives and are not doing this out of fear?  

-Is it possible kneeling during the anthem is not a protest against the flag or the anthem like the players have said since last year?

-Is it possible conservatives have a skewed perception of police brutality the same way liberals do?

-Is it possible that conservatives should not be in support of government officials such as Trump/ Sessions and so on who try to tell a private business what they should and should not allow and advocate firing an employee?

2 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Kaprnick knelt because he refused to stand for the flag and was widely criticized for sitting.     

Kap was very critical of the US, including the police, military, legal system, and economic system. 

That fact of the original intentional display of disrespect in protest cannot be easily dismissed by everyone.  Yes, it is his right to do so, but it is everyone's right to have an opinion about his opinions.  

Voicing opinions while you are at work is a different matter. Who wants to go to the 7-11 with We Hate Trump posters?   Would the manager make you take them down?  Can you ask the manager that you would prefer to buy your beer and Fritos without political opinions?

But when you get off work, you can take off your 7-11 uniform and stand in a corner with a Dump Trump sign.  

Being critical of political protest of an employee while you want to purchase beer or entertainment from them, is NOT being against free speech, nor is it the right of the employee to be able to inflict it in you during the transaction.  

But the issue is their bosses agree with them protesting this, so this should not be an issue.  Its no different then any private business who refuses to show the NFL games on tv because of this issues (which some did).  Should the private business be forced to show the games on tv because they are bringing politics into their place of business?  Why is this an issue if this is a private business.  The NFL is a private business.  

 

If people take issue with this, just sto[ watching the games.  Dont' demand that they players be fired or forced to stand if their bosses are in support of them.  If 7-11 wants to do the above mentioned, just don't go there.  Its not that hard.  Although are not doing that.  They are demanding these players be fired or forced to do something they want even though their bosses have no issues with this.  Its a private business and if their bosses are fine with it, why is it the governments business to get involved and demand change?

 

 

[KnightofChrist]

What part of society has not been politicized? Where are those with traditional Christian or traditional American values portrayed in a positive light? 

And it's more than "science" killing football, everyone has always known it is a contact even violate sport. It's another traditional American institution that's being torn down.  

Anyway, I'm going to my over worked underpaid job now. Everyone please enjoy the llama drama.

Just to add real quick, the NFL doesn't really support free speech. They fine players for happy dances when they score points, fine them when they wear head bands in support of awareness for abused women, big problem in NFL, they fine players for 9/11 shoes, fine players for pro-police stickers. The NFL playing the game of "we support free speech" is full of... well some pretty vile nasty hypocritical stuff.

Edited September 27, 2017 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

35 minutes ago, havok579257 said:

The thing is, every time we talk and there is a point being made that you disagree with, its turns into the leftists are behind it?  Its always that.  Conservatives cant support anything your against or they will be labeled leftists. 

 

In your mind, your a leftists or a conservative coward if you kneel during the anthem in protest of police brutality.  Your a leftists or conservative coward if you are in support of these athletes to use their first amendment right to protest at their job when their bosses approve of what they are doing.  Your a leftist if you disagree with dominicansoul.

 

A couple honest questions for you. 

-Is it possible players and owners support this cause who are conservatives and are not doing this out of fear?  

-Is it possible kneeling during the anthem is not a protest against the flag or the anthem like the players have said since last year?

-Is it possible conservatives have a skewed perception of police brutality the same way liberals do?

-Is it possible that conservatives should not be in support of government officials such as Trump/ Sessions and so on who try to tell a private business what they should and should not allow and advocate firing an employee?

But the issue is their bosses agree with them protesting this, so this should not be an issue.  Its no different then any private business who refuses to show the NFL games on tv because of this issues (which some did).  Should the private business be forced to show the games on tv because they are bringing politics into their place of business?  Why is this an issue if this is a private business.  The NFL is a private business.  

 

If people take issue with this, just sto[ watching the games.  Dont' demand that they players be fired or forced to stand if their bosses are in support of them.  If 7-11 wants to do the above mentioned, just don't go there.  Its not that hard.  Although are not doing that.  They are demanding these players be fired or forced to do something they want even though their bosses have no issues with this.  Its a private business and if their bosses are fine with it, why is it the governments business to get involved and demand change?

 

 

The reality is, many people didn't like or want the protest by employees because it started clearly as intentional disrespect.   7-11 manager would shut it down and tell them to do it on their own time, off premises.  

In an NFL stadium, many subsidized by taxpayers, it should have been stopped immediately.   However, because of the media exposure and manipulation, stopping the display of disrespect was construed as racist or choosing a political side in today's charged politics.   

Owners(bosses) risk being publicly vilified if they stop it, because it's become a manufactured conflict of race, religion, and political affiliation.  Just look at these two recent threads.   There isn't much different opinion, other than shouting about how wrong the other is when there is disagreement.  

Edited September 27, 2017 by Anomaly

[dominicansoul]

24 minutes ago, havok579257 said:

The thing is, every time we talk and there is a point being made that you disagree with, its turns into the leftists are behind it?  Its always that.  Conservatives cant support anything your against or they will be labeled leftists. 

 

In your mind, your a leftists or a conservative coward if you kneel during the anthem in protest of police brutality.  Your a leftists or conservative coward if you are in support of these athletes to use their first amendment right to protest at their job when their bosses approve of what they are doing.  Your a leftist if you disagree with dominicansoul.

 

A couple honest questions for you. 

-Is it possible players and owners support this cause who are conservatives and are not doing this out of fear?  

-Is it possible kneeling during the anthem is not a protest against the flag or the anthem like the players have said since last year?

-Is it possible conservatives have a skewed perception of police brutality the same way liberals do?

-Is it possible that conservatives should not be in support of government officials such as Trump/ Sessions and so on who try to tell a private business what they should and should not allow and advocate firing an employee?

But the issue is their bosses agree with them protesting this, so this should not be an issue.  Its no different then any private business who refuses to show the NFL games on tv because of this issues (which some did).  Should the private business be forced to show the games on tv because they are bringing politics into their place of business?  Why is this an issue if this is a private business.  The NFL is a private business.  

 

If people take issue with this, just sto[ watching the games.  Dont' demand that they players be fired or forced to stand if their bosses are in support of them.  If 7-11 wants to do the above mentioned, just don't go there.  Its not that hard.  Although are not doing that.  They are demanding these players be fired or forced to do something they want even though their bosses have no issues with this.  Its a private business and if their bosses are fine with it, why is it the governments business to get involved and demand change?

 

 

I never call you a leftist yet you disagree with me all the time.  lol

[havok579257]

13 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

What part of society has not been politicized? Where are those with traditional Christian or traditional American values portrayed in a positive light? 

And it's more than "science" killing football, everyone has always known it is a contact even violate sport. It's another traditional American institution that's being torn down.  

Anyway, I'm going to my over worked underpaid job now. Everyone please enjoy the llama drama.

Just to add real quick, the NFL doesn't really support free speech. They fine players for happy dances when they score points, fine them when they wear head bands in support of awareness for abused women, big problem in NFL, they fine players for 9/11 shoes, fine players for pro-police stickers. The NFL playing the game of "we support free speech" is full of... well some pretty vile nasty hypocritical stuff.

Knowing its a contact sport and knowing that if your play long enough you will have CTE are a completely different thing.  I played college football.  When I played no one knew what CTE was or how serious it is.  We got concussions and were expected to play cause it was considered a minor thing.  The NFL is being killed by science and it has the evidence to back it up.  Players are quitting the NFL because of this.  Parents are not putting their young children into football because of this.  Former players are saying they refuse to put their children into football because of this.  Knowing its a violent sport and knowing how that it causes long term brain damage are to different things.  This protest is not going to kill the NFL but science showing how dangerous it is will.

 

The NFL is a private company.  It supports what it wants to support.  No different than all other private companies.  A private company can put rules in place to follow.  Just because a business supports free speech does not mean they have to support unfettered free speech.  Just because they support the players free speech to protest police brutality with kneeling doesn't mean they have to support everything and all things considered free speech.  Also the NFL supporting players right to protest against police brutality but at the same time putting limits on touchdown celebrations are not equal. 

9 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

The reality is, many people didn't like or want the protest by employees because it started clearly as intentional disrespect in protest.   7-11 manager would shut it down and tell them to do it on their own time, off premises.  

In an NFL stadium, many subsidized by taxpayers, it should have been stopped immediately.   However, because of the media exposure and manipulation, stopping the display of disrespect was construed as racist or choosing a political side in today's charged politics.   

Owners(bosses) risk being publicly vilified if they stop it, because it's become a manufactured conflict of race, religion, and political affiliation.  Just look at these two recent threads.   There isn't much deferring opinion, other than shouting about how wrong the other is when there is disagreement.  

You say 7-11 would tell their employees to shut it down and do it on their own time but we really don't know.  What we do know is these players bosses support them.  Its their business, they are the owners and they support this.  I honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this and demanding changes when the NFL is a private company and support this.  

 

NFL stadiums are subsidized by taxpayers because taxpayers vote for this.  Its their choice.  Although just because tax dollars go into a private business does not make them accountable to tax payers.  They are a private business and can do what they choose to do.  Its no different to Cerner who gets government subsidies and tax payer funds to move their private company to a certain state.  Just because tax payers agree to give them money does not mean the tax payer can dictate what a private company can and can not allow (excluding things against the law).

 

At the end of the day, the NFL is a private company and can do what they choose to do with in the confines of the law.  The government or government officals should not be getting involved saying private employees should be fired or suspended just because they do something their owners agree with but many voters disagree with.

13 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

I never call you a leftist yet you disagree with me all the time.  lol

in previous topics you have. i have had to repeat over and over that I am a conservative whenever i support anything that the typicl conservative does not.
 

i guess the broader question is, can you be a conservative and agree with liberal ideas and policies and not be branded a leftist.  Or to be a conservative do you need to subscribe to all conservative points to be a true conservative?

[dominicansoul]

19 minutes ago, havok579257 said:

in previous topics you have. i have had to repeat over and over that I am a conservative whenever i support anything that the typicl conservative does not.
 

i guess the broader question is, can you be a conservative and agree with liberal ideas and policies and not be branded a leftist.  Or to be a conservative do you need to subscribe to all conservative points to be a true conservative?

I've never called you a leftist.  That's part of your disconnect and failure to comprehend my post.  

A true conservative would never agree with liberalism, liberalism is a poison.  I don't agree that social issues are "liberal."  Completely disagree with that.  

[havok579257]

8 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

I've never called you a leftist.  That's part of your disconnect and failure to comprehend my post.  

A true conservative would never agree with liberalism, liberalism is a poison.  I don't agree that social issues are "liberal."  Completely disagree with that.  

sorry, implied that I was a leftist.  You can go back and check and see.

 

The last part of your post is exactly why this country is having such issues today.  There is no middle ground.  Your for me or your against me.  Its my way or the highway.  

 

I guess if conservationism is always and completely right and liberalism is always and completely wrong, why does the church not teach this and support this notion?  Conservationism is not interchangeable with Catholicism.  I don't understand how anyone could disagree with this notion.   

[Era Might]

For those who think athletes should just "focus on sports," sports is part of man's social organization...it is political in itself. That's why the NFL has fighter jets flying over stadiums...sports is a national cult.

Sports is one way modern society organizes its citizens' energies. Sports is similar to labor unions, it's a way of organizing, and both mass sports and labor unions emerged at the same time, as society was moving from rural to urban/industrial. Men were becoming more domesticated, more professionalized, but they still needed an outlet for physical energies. For workers, they lived vicariously through professional athletes.

I think it's silly, looking back, they had us stand up and pledge allegiance to the flag every morning in school. It's pretty creepy if you ask me. I don't have a problem with patriotism, but I don't equate patriotism with nationalism. This country needs less reverence for symbols that people like Trump use to blind us to reality...and God is one of those symbols, Trump likes to say we all honor the same flag and have the same God. Sure we do.

[Anomaly]

The NFL owners can face criticism like everyone else.  Donald can voice his opinions as well.  Donald did not say to put them in jail because he is President.  

At the he beginning and end of the day, due to taxpayers subsidies, the Stadium is not solely a privately owned venue like a 7-11.  The fact that taxpayers subsidized most stadiums put a burden on the NFL owners to consider all the public contributors.  That pretty much translates to holding a neutral position and not letting a public funded venue be used against the wishes of a significant group of contributors. It isn't just a private property and private business anymore.  There are rules and restrictions about what it can be used for and voters have a say in demanding enforcement of the rules or reviewing the lease agreements.  As been pointed out, reasonable people can be uncomfortable with acts of disrespect and share landlord rights.  Sorry, but just because we contribute taxes, we do have a say in how it is run as long as it doesn't materially hinder the business operations.   

If Cerner wanted to develop a pro South Civil War park again st wishes of many voters and taxpayers, the county can make demands and threaten review of the terms of subsidies   

The NFL can allow or disallow behavior and protests outside of the publicly owned venue as permitted or restricted in our laws.   Nothing wrong with that

 

[Era Might]

2 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

Just what unites this Country anymore? You can cross out football and the national anthem. Everywhere there is division. Football is dying, America and Western Civilization too. Nothing unites us anymore, there is nothing but division.

America was part of the Enlightenment, it was based on ideas of reason, democracy, etc. What unites us? I think what unites us is that we're all human beings. There is no such thing as "an American" because America is not a race or a nationality or a religion. America is the human project, the freedom to be. But, all that's been turned into a nationalist system where the important thing is not to be free, but to be American. America is not a civilization, it's the break from civilization. America explicitly broke from all that came before it, literally, it declared its independence from the Old World. America has always had fault lines...it was founded on a society where whites ruled blacks as property. It took a bloody civil war to solve that. We need less toeing-the-patriotic-line, less flag saluting and more democracy. Unity is something that comes naturally...if Americans aren't unified, then symbols aren't going to fix it, and symbols are going to make it worse, because then symbols become propaganda.

[Seven77]

I don't think kneeling is necessarily a sign of disrespect for the flag...  burning a flag is disrespectful. Standing with your hand over your heart is just a custom, a tradition of men. That said, maybe I would stand If I could, probably would… anyway, this act of kneeling is not even meant to be disrespectful according to those doing it. Colin K. wanted to be a way to bring awareness to the problem of racial injustice In this country.

If you think about, Donald Trump has nothing to be angry about because this is not contrary to his logic of MAGA. America is not that great at the moment, we need to "make America great again." Kneeling is like flying a flag at half mast or something similar to that... 

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

Unity is something that comes naturally...if Americans aren't unified, then symbols aren't going to fix it, and symbols are going to make it worse, because then symbols become propaganda.

1

 Real talk.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Seven77

[little2add]

I stand with law and order, the cops are not the bad guys, neither is trump. everybody has the right to speak there mind whether it is popular (politicly correct) or not, even the president.

 

anarchy is not the solution

[havok579257]

7 minutes ago, little2add said:

I stand with law and order, the cops are not the bad guys, neither is trump. everybody has the right to speak there mind whether it is popular (politicly correct) or not, even the president.

 

anarchy is not the solution

are all cops the good guys?  is everything that Trump does good?  does the President as an arm of the government get to demand free speech be stopped weather he is conservative or liberal?

 

who is supporting anarchy?