medicaid expansion should stay, be expanded

[dairygirl4u2c]

all states should have opted into it, and there shouldn't be talks of getting rid of it.

politics is the reason people are dying. people die without health insurance, fact. the only reasons states are against it is politics, they dont want to look like they are being liberal, even though it's in their best interest to take free money. if you look into the details states pay a measely small single digit copay on federal money.

even cost wise it makes sense in the bigger picture. on average, states pay a third of what medicare pays for the same procedure, and even less than most insurance. if the overall economy paid that rate of reimbursement, we'd be close to other countries in what they spend. that is, we spend 17 percent gdp on healthcare, and no country spends much more than ten percent. a third off is eleven, or twelve percent gdp.

if you really want to stick it to poor, have them pay a copay or deductible base on ability, dont get rid of medicaid. that's ridiculous.

[Anomaly]

People die because Adam and Eve ate the apple.  

 

It's inevitable. 

[havok579257]

how about actually fix the system and not just try to put a band-aid on an open chest wound.

[Seven77]

3 hours ago, Anomaly said:

People die because Adam and Eve ate the apple.  

 

It's inevitable. 

 Who said that it was an apple? 

Let's get rid of hospitals in addition to healthcare because Original Sin. 

[Anomaly]

2 hours ago, Seven77 said:

 Who said that it was an apple? 

Let's get rid of hospitals in addition to healthcare because Original Sin. 

It was as reasonable a response as I could come up with.  

I also don't think it is just politics, or states are passing on "free money".

Arent we just hanging out, BS-ing?

[KnightofChrist]

Government fails, solution more government. Repeat.

[polskieserce]

There is absolutely no reason why the US should not have universal healthcare.  Other Western nations do it and its working just fine.  The problem is that too many Americans worship the rich as if they were gods instead of caring about human rights or our relationship with the natural environment.

[Anomaly]

The problem is that the US suffers from overwrought self loathing and thinks every one does things better.  

The NHS in the U.K. suxxx.  Who in the US would be willing to go home and wait for a brown envelope to get an MRI appointment when you find a lump in your neck or had two months of stomach pain, even if it is free. 

US Government is doing such a great job with the VA that area management that maintain a fake list to hide Vets who die waiting for care don't get fired, even years after every body finds out and the whistleblower is the only person who suffers consequences. 

Yeah, let me pay more taxes for that system...

Edited September 22, 2017 by Anomaly

[polskieserce]

2 hours ago, Anomaly said:

The problem is that the US suffers from overwrought self loathing and thinks every one does things better.  

The NHS in the U.K. suxxx.  Who in the US would be willing to go home and wait for a brown envelope to get an MRI appointment when you find a lump in your neck or had two months of stomach pain, even if it is free. 

US Government is doing such a great job with the VA that area management that maintain a fake list to hide Vets who die waiting for care don't get fired, even years after every body finds out and the whistleblower is the only person who suffers consequences. 

Yeah, let me pay more taxes for that system...

Universal health care is not a sideshow that you execute on a stingy budget.  It has to be a TOP priority and people have to be willing to pay much higher taxes to fund that system.  Yes, the waits will naturally be longer because you are expanding healthcare to EVERYONE and not just the schmuck who is majored in engineering and earns 80k a year.  Under capitalism, the market only provides goods and services to individuals who are rich enough to pay for them and basically excludes everyone else.

[Anomaly]

8 minutes ago, polskieserce said:

Universal health care is not a sideshow that you execute on a stingy budget.  It has to be a TOP priority and people have to be willing to pay much higher taxes to fund that system.  Yes, the waits will naturally be longer because you are expanding healthcare to EVERYONE and not just the schmuck who is majored in engineering and earns 80k a year.  Under capitalism, the market only provides goods and services to individuals who are rich enough to pay for them and basically excludes everyone else.

And that (see above) is why there is little hope of an intelligent resolution.  

The US already spends more than twice than the U.K., per capita, in health care.  

And your answer is silly rhetoric condemning capitalism and fallacious claim you have to be educated and making more than average to afford anything.  

You don't know, and make silly stuff up, and spew it with irritable righteousness. 

Since this is a Catholic site,  and we obviously are just gonna bluster and BS, I'll just blame it on a cursed apple and chill and wait for the second coming.    That's as valid as any other point being made in the thread and at least will help generate a little traffic and a few posts.   It is the tone of just about all public discussion on any disputed topic, now a days.  

 

[Era Might]

9 hours ago, Anomaly said:

US Government is doing such a great job with the VA that area management that maintain a fake list to hide Vets who die waiting for care don't get fired, even years after every body finds out and the whistleblower is the only person who suffers consequences. 

Yeah, let me pay more taxes for that system...

I think the big point here is that we recognize the government's responsibility to veterans. It has the same fundamental responsibility to its citizens. We are either a common-wealth or a private-wealth, IMO. As you say, you can have a discussion within a certain range, but the fundamental political division is between a country ruled by private enterprise, and a country ruled by common enterprise. I don't know if you've ever seen Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles but it's a brilliant look at this division. The villain in the movie wants to develop a private railroad and he says "only one thing stands between me and that land...the rightful owners" lol. Then he cracks open a law book to find legal precedent. IOW in a private-wealth, the government serves the wealthy, and kills the little man whenever he stands in the way, and he doea it completely legally and legitimately.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the problem is that there are just too many myths out there, and as much as i educate on this topic people i guess just ignore it. 

the Commonwealth did a study that showed that the wait times in other developed ie government involved countries is on average better than ours. that means single payer or whatever doesn't translate into longer wait times, necesssarily. of course it will have some effect, but negligible. the bigger picture is what matters... if you want to have decent wait times, don't artifiially limit the supply of doctors like the usa does now. notice this isn't an issue of whether it's single payer or not. sure there will be marginal wait time increases, if everyone is covered, but most states have less than ten percent uninsured, so it's not like adding a single didgit increase is going to change much. again though this is a marginal effect, look at doctor supply if you want the heart of it. 
even if wait time is an issue, which it's not, it's far from moral to try to improve your own healthcare by denying it from others. 

also it's majorly uninformed to say the uk spends more than we do. we spend almost twice as much as everyone, that includes per capita. i just looked it up to be sure, and it's more than twice as much as the uk per capita. again, we spend eighteen percent gdp and no one else spends much more than ten percent gdp. that's a trillion dollar difference, which is on average the same as cutting one's taxes in half. but for the typical person it's more than in half overall, cause taxes are mostly paid by the weaelthy and premiums now are paid by the tyhpical person.

also no one is advocating a VA system for the usa. that is where hospitals and doctors are ran by the government... this would be beurocratic and not a great thing but no one is pushing for it. it's also how the uk does it, not how anyone says the usa should do it.

18 hours ago, Anomaly said:

And that (see above) is why there is little hope of an intelligent resolution.  

The US already spends more than twice than the U.K., per capita, in health care.  

And your answer is silly rhetoric condemning capitalism and fallacious claim you have to be educated and making more than average to afford anything.  

You don't know, and make silly stuff up, and spew it with irritable righteousness. 

Since this is a Catholic site,  and we obviously are just gonna bluster and BS, I'll just blame it on a cursed apple and chill and wait for the second coming.    That's as valid as any other point being made in the thread and at least will help generate a little traffic and a few posts.   It is the tone of just about all public discussion on any disputed topic, now a days.  

 

 

[dairygirl4u2c]

a good test is what people who experience single payer etc think. almost none of them want the USA's health system. or take the people who experience both, and you will find the same thing. such as...

"Why I (a right leaning libertarian) Prefer French Healthcare"
"For a dozen years now I’ve led a dual life, spending more than 90 percent of my time and money in the U.S. while receiving 90 percent of my health care in my wife’s native France. On a personal level the comparison is no contest: I’ll take the French experience any day. ObamaCare opponents often warn that a new system will lead to long waiting times, mountains of paperwork, and less choice among doctors. Yet on all three of those counts the French system is significantly better, not worse, than what the U.S. has now."

i would guarantee by far most of the people who oppose changing our system would suddenly not want to go back if we were to change. that's how progress and truth goes...

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

[Anomaly]

I have family in both U.K. And USA and have dealt with both. I have many family members  in the US medical field.  Doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, nurses, and pharmacists.  

There are a lot of opinions.  Nobody is 100% happy in either.  The US spends way too much for what we end up getting.   Nobody on either side of the Atlantic think it's a good idea to just let the government take over without a plan.   They all pretty much agree there is little thoughtful discussion because it's so politically charged.    

Public discourse is strictly hype and division because that is what works for politics and selling advertising.  The average person has picked a political side and aren't willing to listen or compromise. 

Some questions are:

How to get people to be responsible for their health?  Lose weight and exercise instead of taking blood pressure medication, cholesterol medication, diabetes medication, because it's easier and free or cheap?

How do you legislate choice of treatment without dictating treatment protocols that don't allow innovation or becomes too strict?

How can the medical education system change without diluting the quality of training but rewarding and encouraging the brightest and dedicated?

What is the limit of basic care and when is extraordinary care not a right?

What can people morally choose to support or not support?

How is right and responsiblitt to live or allow to die with dignity decided?  

How can we avoid the chance that all Downs Syndrome children are aborted like in Finland when medical decisions are legislated?

Lots of things to consider.  The US has built an entirely different medical institution than what was built in the U.K. from practically nothing to what it is now.   Theirs is far from perfect and not all aspects are better.  

The way Obama Care was rammed through unilaterally practically ensured it would le be resented.   It is more expensive for everyone and we didn't keep our plans and doctors.   Repealing without a plan is almost as bad.  

Ideally, I wish the R and D would have a bi-partisan committee with representatives from the medical institutions to come op with a plan in two years.  No rushing, forcing, or divisive politics.

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Anomaly

[polskieserce]

On 9/22/2017 at 2:38 PM, Anomaly said:

And that (see above) is why there is little hope of an intelligent resolution.  

The US already spends more than twice than the U.K., per capita, in health care.  

And your answer is silly rhetoric condemning capitalism and fallacious claim you have to be educated and making more than average to afford anything.  

You don't know, and make silly stuff up, and spew it with irritable righteousness. 

Since this is a Catholic site,  and we obviously are just gonna bluster and BS, I'll just blame it on a cursed apple and chill and wait for the second coming.    That's as valid as any other point being made in the thread and at least will help generate a little traffic and a few posts.   It is the tone of just about all public discussion on any disputed topic, now a days. 

And what part of what I said is factually incorrect?  I said that universal health care is expensive and that is the truth.  What exactly do you want to dispute there?

If you expand the pool of people demanding a service, but the number of providers stays the same, the wait times will be longer.  This goes for any service available to the public, not just healthcare.  What do you disagree with here?

Yes, the US does spend more on healthcare compared to a lot of nations.  I never denied that.  The American system of healthcare is too complex and bureaucratic.  There is a lot of money that could be saved if insurance companies were scrapped altogether and it was a single payer system.  The price of pharmaceutical drugs is another major reason why healthcare costs so much.  If the US didn't allow for such strict patents of pharmaceutical drugs, the prices would be much lower (like in Canada or Europe).

As a Catholic socialist, I am a very harsh critic of the capitalist system.  This is not going to change.  Capitalism is an extremely unstable and environmentally unsustainable that has historically put profits ahead of ordinary people.  All you need to do is look at history to see where I'm coming from.