Heard A New One Tonight

[Theologian in Training]

I really need to brush off my apologetic dust, and start getting informed again. Tonight really showed me, when I was bombarded every which way by a Protestant intent on getting his point across.

He quoted the following: John 17:11-16 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And then, of course, asked why we call the Pope the Holy Father when Jesus only used it this once in reference to God The Father. I was stumped. I need to do my research.

Any Help?

God Bless

[StColette]

Take heart i've been hit by this one as well.

Okay let me see if I can explain it. Yes, they are correct in the fact that the Bible says that we are to only refer to God as Our Father. But one must take into mine that there is meaning behind calling Him, Our Father. We can differentiate between Our Heavenly Father and our earthly fathers. Because if they want to take it to the extreme we would not be able to call our biological fathers, dad, daddy, or father because well they are all terms referring to being called father. But since we are knowledgeable people we know the difference between our biological fathers and our heavenly Father. Same goes with the pope who is like an earthly father to us. The Pope helps to guide the people of God and helps us to learn more about our faith. So in a sense he is a father to us because like our real biological fathers he helps to comfort, lead us, pray for us, and take care of us. The Pope holds a position of holiness, he has been chosen among every man and has been seen as the proper person hold that position. Being a religious man the Pope tends to exude holiness through prayer and devotion to God. Its not in the words that the meaning is held it is in meaning behind the words. Like calling someone an angel when they do something nice for you doesn't literally mean you believe that they are a real "angel"

Hope this helps lol I got a little carried away at parts

[phatcatholic]

first off, it is logically inconsistent to say that, since Jesus used a title only once and it was directed at the Father, that this title could not also be used to apply to other people. his argument basically reduces down to one from silence, which are exponentially weak. anyone acquainted w/ debate will affirm that arguments from silence are futile, for they prove nothing. just b/c something isn't said, that doesn't mean it wasn't believed, especially since the bible is not even meant as a collection of everything the apostles believed.

that said, the usual verse flung at catholics in response to our use of the title "Father" for ordained authorities in the church is Mat 23:9

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

but, we see that elsewhere in the bible, jesus and the apostles refer to church authority figures as "fathers."

note here that referring to verses in which the OT prophets are called "fathers" do not prove anything to most protestants b/c when catholics use the title we are calling the person our "spiritual father" and it is this that they reject. since catholics aren't referring to the prophets or predecessors in the faith, the verses where these people are called "father" don't work for them. the same goes for references to biological "fathers" since priests aren't that either.

so, you have to show them the verses where the apostles refer to other people, and even themselves, as actual spiritual fathers in the faith. also, just to be on the safe side, [b]always use the KJB[/b]. anyway, these verses include the following:

[b]Acts 7:2 [/b]And he said, Men, brethren, and [b]fathers[/b], hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our [b]father[/b] Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
[b]--note:[/b] in this verse, both meanings of the title are shown

[b]Acts 22:1 [/b]Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

[b]1 Cor 4:15 [/b]For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
[b]--note: [/b]in saying that he has begotten them, Paul is essentially saying, "it is rare to have a father in Christ Jesus. i am one such father to you"

[b]1 Cor 4:17 [/b]For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
[b]--note:[/b] if Timothy is Paul's son in faith, it is logically deduced that Paul is Timothy's father in faith

[b]2 Cor 12:14 [/b]Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
[b]--note:[/b] Paul compares his relationship to the Corinthians as to parents w/ their children. of the parents, Paul is obviously the father.

[b]Phil 2:22 [/b]But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.

[b]1 Thess 2:11 [/b]As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,

[b]1 Tim 1:2,18 [/b]
[b]2 [/b]Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
[b]18 [/b]This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

[b]2 Tim 1:2 [/b]To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

[b]Titus 1:4 [/b]To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

[b]Philemon 1:10 [/b]I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:

[b]1 Pet 5:13 [/b]The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


so, with these scripture verses revealed, how are we to understand the commandment of Jesus in Mat 23:9 ("call no man your father"). if we literaly cannot call anyone else our spiritual father but God the Father, then the bible would seem to contradict itself on this point. so, there must be another interpretation of Mat 23:9 that reconciles it w/ the verses we have provided.

unity among these verses in achieved when we realize that w/ these words Jesus is telling us that God is our Father first and foremost. no one can "father" us the way God the Father does. so, his commandment is given to illustrate God's preeminence as the Father, not to say that other members cant be spiritual fathers in a lesser sense, and actually gain their status as "fathers" from the one communion of faith which unites us all into one family of God--which includes not only spiritual "fathers" but "brothers," "sisters," and "mothers" (see Mary) as well.

[b]Eph 3:14-15 [/b]For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named...

i hope this helps........pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

for more on this, see the following articles:

[b]Using the Title of "Father"[/b]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp"]Call No Man Father?[/url]
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num26.htm"]Call No Man Father?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2875"]Call No Man Father?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cin.org/mateo/91090410.html"]Why Catholics Call Priests "Father"[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WHYFATHR.htm"]Why Do We Call Priests "Father"?[/url]
--[url="http://cuf.org/nonmemb/callnoman.pdf"]Call No Man Father? Understanding Matthew 23:9[/url]
--[url="http://catholicapologetics.net/apolo_115.htm"]Don't Be Called a Teacher and Call No Man Your Father[/url]
--[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q056.htm"]What Do I Tell a Person Who Insists on Calling a Priest "Mister" Instead of "Father"?[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Theologian in Training]

Thank you for the replies. However, what was tripping me up was that he was focusing specifically on the use of "Holy Father." I used the spiritual father argument but he wasn't buying it because, to him, we were putting the Pope on the same level as God The Father. Who, as we all know, is merely human.

See the difficulty I think is that I was engaging in a conversation with more than one person. I have a feeling he initiated the conversation, but handed it over to his Mother-in-Law who happens to be a heavy "bible thumper" and enjoys pouncing before letting you process.

Because right after I said that the argument went into "Saint Worship" and bowing to statues, and graven images, especially like those in Heaven (cannot remember the exact quote from the bible) When I pointed out Moses and the staff s(h)e stated that that was not a graven image.

It was an eye-opener for me. I really need to "always be ready to make an account of the faith that is within me"

Thanks again to all. I will certainly check those links out.

God Bless

[Jake Huether]

Why is it that many Protestants try to make it sound like because we attribute a certain aspect of God to someone / something else, that we automatically MUST believe that that someone or something else IS God.

Take for instance our believe in the intercession of Saints. You've heard it before, "Only God can hear our prayers. Is Mary God?"

We believe that Saints have certain powers (given by God of course). But because we believe this, Protestants (some) will take this and make it into something it isn't.


Is the Pope a father? Yes, he guides his flock. Is he holy? Yes, indeed. He was annointed by God! So... Is the Pope a Holy Father? YES! Is God a Father? Yes. He has Fathered us all. We are His creation. Is God Holy? YES! God is, well, God. Is the Pope God? NO! They are two different beings.

Can I talk, listen, think, love, etc.? Yes. Can God talk, listen, think, love, etc.? Yes. Am I God? LOL. NO!

His argument is weak. Because we call the Pope the "Holy Father", then we are placing him at the level of God the Father! Weak. They are similar characteristics - but "Holy Father" doesn't define God. If it does, than that "Pastor" best be gettin back to studying his Bible.

[St_Ignatius]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Jun 25 2004, 09:15 AM'] Why is it that many Protestants try to make it sound like because we attribute a certain aspect of God to someone / something else, that we automatically MUST believe that that someone or something else IS God.

Take for instance our believe in the intercession of Saints. You've heard it before, "Only God can hear our prayers. Is Mary God?"

We believe that Saints have certain powers (given by God of course). But because we believe this, Protestants (some) will take this and make it into something it isn't.


Is the Pope a father? Yes, he guides his flock. Is he holy? Yes, indeed. He was annointed by God! So... Is the Pope a Holy Father? YES! Is God a Father? Yes. He has Fathered us all. We are His creation. Is God Holy? YES! God is, well, God. Is the Pope God? NO! They are two different beings.

Can I talk, listen, think, love, etc.? Yes. Can God talk, listen, think, love, etc.? Yes. Am I God? LOL. NO!

His argument is weak. Because we call the Pope the "Holy Father", then we are placing him at the level of God the Father! Weak. They are similar characteristics - but "Holy Father" doesn't define God. If it does, than that "Pastor" best be gettin back to studying his Bible. [/quote]
We are all united in Christ the saints in heaven, the beloved in purgatory and us who daily need to take up our cross and follow the Lord. Each of us living, purging and who have died for Christ should be united in a single perfect sphere of love to Christ's most Sacred Heart. Our prayers are heard by the saints and also by the ones in purgatory for we all are united in Him. The Saints are great examples for us on Earth and there are many times when praying to Mary or the Saints my prayers were answered. I heard a story last night in Hiroshima where the bomb dropped there were four priests that survived the bomb and they were blocks away. Four priests praying the rosary during the time, Survived!! This is a miracle.

May we all grow closer together in thought, word and deed for the glory of God.

St_Ignatius

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='St_Ignatius' date='Jun 25 2004, 08:47 AM'] We are all united in Christ the saints in heaven, the beloved in purgatory and us who daily need to take up our cross and follow the Lord. Each of us living, purging and who have died for Christ should be united in a single perfect sphere of love to Christ's most Sacred Heart. Our prayers are heard by the saints and also by the ones in purgatory for we all are united in Him. The Saints are great examples for us on Earth and there are many times when praying to Mary or the Saints my prayers were answered. I heard a story last night in Hiroshima where the bomb dropped there were four priests that survived the bomb and they were blocks away. Four priests praying the rosary during the time, Survived!! This is a miracle.

May we all grow closer together in thought, word and deed for the glory of God.

St_Ignatius [/quote]
Amen!

Welcome to the phorum, St_Ignatius.

It really is that simple. We are one Body in Christ. The Body doesn't lose connection when our physical bodies die.


But unfortunately our separated brethren (aka Protestants) don't see it that clearly.

[phatcatholic]

theologian,

ok, i see what ur gettin at now. here' some more example--which build off of jake's argument:

Artaxerxes is called "king of kings" (Ezra 7:12). Jesus is called "king of kings" (Rev 17:14). does that mean that Artaxerxes is Jesus? NO

Peter is called "rock" (Mat 16:18). Jesus is called "rock" (1 Cor 10:4). does that mean Peter is Jesus? NO

the apostles and prophets are "the foundation" (Eph 2:20). Jesus is "the foundation" (1 Cor 3:11). so is God (2 Tim 2:19). does that mean the apostles and the prophets are Jesus or God? NO


the bible itself shows us that titles and analogies used for Jesus and God can in fact be used to describe his creatures. as long as we understand that Jesus/God exemplify these titles first and foremost, and that creatures hold them secondarily, we are doing no discervice to God when we call his creatures by his titles.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[St_Ignatius]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Jun 25 2004, 12:05 PM'] Amen!

Welcome to the phorum, St_Ignatius.

It really is that simple. We are one Body in Christ. The Body doesn't lose connection when our physical bodies die.


But unfortunately our separated brethren (aka Protestants) don't see it that clearly. [/quote]
Thanks,

God's yoke is so light and love is the key to it all. Unfortunately, we like to make things much more complicated then it really is and put things under a microscope. Faith, hope and love can't be put under a microscope...but the Lord tells us that we are known by our fruit.

Let's all gather our fruit together for the greater glory of God. Amen.

St_Ignatius

[StColette]

[quote name='St_Ignatius' date='Jun 25 2004, 01:35 PM'] Thanks,

God's yoke is so light and love is the key to it all. Unfortunately, we like to make things much more complicated then it really is and put things under a microscope. Faith, hope and love can't be put under a microscope...but the Lord tells us that we are known by our fruit.

Let's all gather our fruit together for the greater glory of God. Amen.

St_Ignatius [/quote]
St_Ignatius

I couldn't agree more with your attitude about how things are far more complicated than they should be. Faith, Hope, and Love are the keys to truly understanding and they can not be clearly defined.

[Quietfire]

[quote]QUOTE (St_Ignatius @ Jun 25 2004, 01:35 PM)
Thanks,

God's yoke is so light and love is the key to it all. Unfortunately, we like to make things much more complicated then it really is and put things under a microscope. Faith, hope and love can't be put under a microscope...but the Lord tells us that we are known by our fruit.

Let's all gather our fruit together for the greater glory of God. Amen.

St_Ignatius[/quote]


[quote]St_Ignatius

I couldn't agree more with your attitude about how things are far more complicated than they should be. Faith, Hope, and Love are the keys to truly understanding and they can not be clearly defined.[/quote]

Amen. Amen. Amen.

We burden ourselves. We (the "enlightened age") have this desire to try to 'see' everything. How silly we are. St. Ignatius is so correct in saying that God's yoke is so light. How much He desires only our love and devotion. Yet we have this irresistable need to put everything under the microscope. I pray for those who constantly have to examine everything to make it 'passable' for them.
What is it that they truly fear? The truth.

Peace.

[StColette]

I just suddenly remembered a quote that I read not to long ago that emphasized to not understand things so that you may believe them but to believe so you will understand

Saint Augustine says: "understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore, do not try to understand that you may believe, but rather believe so that you may understand."

[MorphRC]

I have trouble with this title as well, its very borderline.

I think the correct rendering is 'holy father' not Holy Father. Much like the same applies to God. You right God, and Lord instead of god or lord to emphasize the Divinity & Holiness. But still the title is disturbing.

[MorphRC]

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