The Salvation Army

[Guest]

Vespers - Thursday 3rd August 2017

Final Intercession:

  "Have mercy on those who have given us their help.

– Father, our trust is in you.'

 

It was the Salvation Army that came fully to my rescue when I found myself in government housing after 6 years of homelessness, ill and no money -  with nothing but gifts of used wringer washing machine, an old fridge, bed and wardrobe.  I had no floor coverings nor window coverings for a start - there was much more I did not have, everything else in fact.  The Salvation Army came fully to my rescue.

 

 

[Mr Cameron]

9 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Vespers - Thursday 3rd August 2017

Final Intercession:

  "Have mercy on those who have given us their help.

– Father, our trust is in you.'

 

It was the Salvation Army that came fully to my rescue when I found myself in government housing after 6 years of homelessness, ill and no money -  with nothing but gifts of used wringer washing machine, an old fridge, bed and wardrobe.  I had no floor coverings nor window coverings for a start - there was much more I did not have, everything else in fact.  The Salvation Army came fully to my rescue.

 

 

Also from Vespers for today: 

Quote

You did not see him, yet you love him; and still without seeing him, you are already filled with a joy so glorious that it cannot be described, because you believe; and you are sure of the end to which your faith looks forward, that is, the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:6-9 (full reading)

[Guest]

There are many times in the Divine Office that The Church prays for the salvation of all souls.  Also many times in Scripture too, as Mr Cameron points out, which indicate Hope for the salvation of all.  And so we should for Jesus died out of love for all and that Love is not withdrawn at any time whatsoever - nor for any reason whatsoever.  Who will or will not be saved is a mystery in The Mystery of God.  Isn't this one of the things Jesus criticised the Pharisees for - i.e. for arguing with each other over what The Law meant and getting The Law right was the way to Heaven?

There is also that beautiful prayer of Our Lady of Fatima taught to the children: "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy Mercy."

I don't think that Our Lady nor The Church would pray for what is impossible.

[Nihil Obstat]

39 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

  And so we should for Jesus died out of love for all and that Love is not withdrawn at any time whatsoever - nor for any reason whatsoever.  

But Grace is lost. One loses sanctifying grace when he commits a mortal sin, and we we know through Church teaching that God can choose not to bestow certain graces according to His mysterious will.

As my previous priest used to say frequently, the only grace we are guaranteed, always and at all times and all situations, is the grace to pray. All other graces flow from that one, and all come exclusively and gratuitously from God.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

But Grace is lost. One loses sanctifying grace when he commits a mortal sin, and we we know through Church teaching that God can choose not to bestow certain graces according to His mysterious will.

As my previous priest used to say frequently, the only grace we are guaranteed, always and at all times and all situations, is the grace to pray. All other graces flow from that one, and all come exclusively and gratuitously from God.

The Good God loves even those in mortal sin.  It is not God who rejects them, it is they who reject God.  It is not God withholding Sanctifying Grace, it is they who refuse it through refusing friendship with God.  We have free will and God will not interfere with our free will.

We do not know, but it MIGHT be that at the moment of death a soul is finally offered repentance and friendship with God with the Gift of Sanctifying Grace. We simply do not know one way or the other.

"Who then can be saved?" the apostles ask.  Jesus replies "and Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible" (Matthew Chapter 19).  Therefore, when I present my case from this or that evidence, it might present an impossibility for it to be incorrect/wrong to our finite understanding and the implications obvious,  but ".....with God all things are possible."  We are finite creatures reflecting on the Infinite God.  We might come to something of an understanding of our human nature, but how understand God who is Absolute Mystery?  Even Jesus, in gifting us an understanding of salvation and how to live pleasing to God, this same Jesus tells us "........with God all things are possible". 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by BarbaraTherese

[Mr Cameron]

I also wonder how grace can be infused into a soul that is still under the affliction of original sin? Which, we assume, the Salvationist's soul ought still to be.

But then again, an individual that has grown up a Salvationist all his life is utterly convinced of his church's teaching. So, he might be content and absolutely sure he's going to heaven so long as he acts morally and spiritually. I wonder so much about this!

[Guest]

While we humans are bound by the rules of logic and reason more or less, God is not.  For myself personally, I cannot conceive of a Good and Just, All Merciful God, Who Is Love for all His creatures, rejecting in some way a person who has lived a good life or even a person who has sinned seriously and repents.  Both the previous being unbaptised. 

Once in Catholicism, in our history, an unbaptised with water person could not enter Heaven under any circumstances.  Later, The Church proclaimed baptism of blood and also of desire.  As Catholics, we do tend to think we know it all full stop, nothing more to know.  However, the depth of Scripture and the Mystery of God are an endless treasure as our history does reveal.

[little2add]

there thrift store is nice.  I'am not too proud to shop there.   Also, the Salvation Army donates all profits to its charity work.

 

[A Yearning Heart]

I've often wondered about baptism, where baptism by desire applies, and where someone might not be baptised (given their circumstances in life, it's just never been a realistic option for them) and what happens then?

I think there is a papal document somewhere that mentions those who have responded to Christ to the best of their ability and their circumstances of life would surely not be lacking the mercy of God.  Just can't remember where...

I've supported the Salvation Army at their second-hand stores and also on their annual door-knock appeal.  They do great work with the homeless. 

This parable always comes to mind about the practicalities of living the Gospel:  

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’"  Matthew 25:34-40

 

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Repent means to turn away from. And saint Paul says I think that none are exempt from grace. I think all persons are warned by the lord to not sin when temptation comes in, we are all given a way out or to turn away from, and then if we do sin there are terrible signs to call us away from that sin and not glorify in it, though some, half or most hearts are deceived to varying degrees and can not hear god properly before the act or after and some so entrenched in sin that the darkness of there conciounce is so thick after years of denying god voice and signs that they can not hear or see at all, they are blind. Baptism cleans out the spiritual eyes and ears as does the absolution of the confessional and the other sacraments. Perhaps? I'm not so learned in such things its just a guess.

[GraceUk]

I didn't know that they didn't baptise.  Still I always give them something if I see them collecting here in the UK.  They do a lot of good work with the homeless and people who have nothing.  Feed my sheep.  I think that's important.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

6 hours ago, GraceUk said:

I didn't know that they didn't baptise.  Still I always give them something if I see them collecting here in the UK.  They do a lot of good work with the homeless and people who have nothing.  Feed my sheep.  I think that's important.

Yes agreed that all must be fed and clothed at the least. And even if they are wrong god is using them to do good keeping in mind though that there are other charities that feed and clothe the poor including holy mother church, but I don't see anything wrong in giving anyone $1 who asks for it including the salvos if you have money spare. I went to one of there rehabs for 3mnths and they let me go to the local catholic church and never once tried to tell me that the catholic faith is wrong.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye