Trump and the Paris Climate

[KnightofChrist]

It was an unconstitutional 'non-treaty' treaty. The sky will not fall without it. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by KnightofChrist

[Luigi]

Whether the U.S. is an official signatory to the Paris Climate Agreement is important only as a symbol, as others have already said.

Setting the goals of the agreement was also somewhat symbolic - they're  good, but they should be attainable. Whether they are or not, in this case, they at least set the direction that we should all be pulling this sled.

From a pragmatic standpoint, any country, state, city, or corporation that thinks the agreement is worthwhile is still free to follow it. And from what I hear, at least some states, cities, and corporations will.

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Luigi

[Era Might]

11 hours ago, Luigi said:

Whether the U.S. is an official signatory to the Paris Climate Agreement is important only as a symbol, as others have already said.

Setting the goals of the agreement was also somewhat symbolic - they're  good, but they should be attainable. Whether they are or not, in this case, they at least set the direction that we should all be pulling this sled.

From a pragmatic standpoint, any country, state, city, or corporation that thinks the agreement is worthwhile is still free to follow it. And from what I hear, at least some states, cities, and corporations will.

I don't agree it's merely symbolic. There are no symbols in politics. Politicians value symbols because they help achieve some purpose. Trump in his speech was clear that he was pulling out of Paris because he thinks it's bad for business. That's what this is about, business. It's another way to remove boundaries. Which is a truly ironic thing about Trump's Administration, he rose to power preaching a giant wall, but he is all about demolishing boundaries. He has tried to demolishing the Press boundary, replacing it with Twitter. Supposedly Twitter is supposed to be more democratic, direct access to the American public, but it's the opposite, it takes away any responsibility and accountability. The Press is a necessary boundary between officials and the people. He also likes to use "quotes" a lot, a boundary that destroys boundaries, that allows him to retract or downplay later on.

Paris is part of a broader demolition of boundaries. I read a really good article the other day about how the Arab world's "enlightenment" for liberal democracy and nationalism, in the mid-20th century, which was promising even if never perfect, was lost to sectarianism and religious fanaticism, in large part thanks to foreign interventions like the USSR in Afghanistan and the USA in Iraq. Arab states had some kind of institutional shell, but it's doubtful whether it can even achieve that any more. Syria is destroyed, Iraq is ground zero for ISIS, Beirut is always precarious, the Arab Spring gave way to new authoritarian regimes.

I mention all that because I think it's absolutely part of the Paris story. We have an oilman in charge of foreign policy. Repeat: we have an oilman in charge of foreign policy. There is money to be made right now, wars to be won, lands to be conquered, in the Arab world, in Asia. Paris is not just a symbol, it's another boundary that Trump has demolished, letting the rich know, this is our moment, we will do everything we can to seize it, and we won't let Euroweenies and idealists get in out way. Next up? Dodd-Frank.

And the best part of all is Trump is doing all this as a populist hero. He said he was elected to represent Pittsburgh not Paris. Meanwhile, Pittsburgh announced it would still commit to Paris regardless of Trump's decision.

In pulling out of Paris, Trump is making sure there is nothing that can get in the way of the rich. Even if the Paris targets are symbolic, he knows that symbols are never symbols. If you even give people the symbolic expectation of boundaries, of accountability, of responsibility, of cooperation, then the people might come to demand that in reality. And Trump can't have that.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Era Might

[dairygirl4u2c]

whatever we are to think of global warming, transitioning to an alternative energy economy is better for the economy anyway, so we might as well do it. he claims he's putting the economy first, but he's not. unlike the free market fundamentalists will tell you, the free market will not take care of everything in the optimum way, more like a clunking car going down the road.

Edited June 9, 2017 by dairygirl4u2c

[little2add]

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

Trump is making sure there is nothing that can get in the way of the rich

nonsense, the Paris Accord was  poorly conceived and if implemented would devastate the US economy.    It would have gone little, if anything to improve the environment.

And another thing, if places like China followed the same EPA regulations as the United States does,  goods and services like steel production jobs, for example, would be on a level playing field...  

Open the link below.   

On 6/2/2017 at 9:30 PM, little2add said:

https://www.inverse.com/article/32209-air-pollution-smog-beijing-china-cigarettes-unhealthy

 

 

[dairygirl4u2c]

if an alternative energy project takes four years to get your money back, but costs too much for a poor person to buy, what happens? the rich don't buy it cause they don't need the savings or want short term savings instead. so instead of getting new technology that would pay for itself with the rich, then with the poor when they buy from the rich, we are wasting money on fuel. think of all the jobs that it is common knowledge are more abundant with alternative energy. think of all the money someone can spend on an array of things and products, and industries, instead of devoting all their money to fuel. we are more of a demand economy than a supply economy anyway.

there's no question saying getting out of the paris agreement is good for the economy is misinformed.

[Era Might]

1 hour ago, little2add said:

nonsense, the Paris Accord was  poorly conceived and if implemented would devastate the US economy.    It would have gone little, if anything to improve the environment.

And another thing, if places like China followed the same EPA regulations as the United States does,  goods and services like steel production jobs, for example, would be on a level playing field...  

Open the link below.   

 

You are arguing that the Paris accord mattered. You agree with Trump that it mattered negatively. Either way, whether it mattered positively or negatively, it mattered. That's why I disagree with the talking points about Paris being an meaningless symbol. Trump gave his talking points that it mattered for business reasons. In my last post I took different talking points. Trump is a billionaire businessman who happens to currently wield executive power in the most complex and powerful political machinery in the world. He gave his version of his decision. I honesty don't think he's bright enough to be aware of his decisions. Paul Ryan recently got criticized for trying to say Trump is inexperienced and should get some slack for that. I don't think it's inexperience, just a man who is good at one thing, the art of business, and sees everything through that lens. He knows nothing of building political institutions, of diplomacy, of creating a foundation for the political crises of the time. He's a simpleton who mistakes himself for a common man.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Era Might

[Jack4]

2 hours ago, little2add said:

 

 

Proof, please?

Proof that, under the accord, India may increase pollutants, even as the US decreases? 

[little2add]

5 hours ago, Jack4 said:

Proof

see: http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/china-india-will-continue-increase-oil-coal-consumption-paris-agreement-notwithstanding/

China

According to Bloomberg, China’s coal-fired generation capacity may increase by as much as 19 percent over the next five years. While the country has canceled some coal-fired capacity due to lack of demand growth, China still plans to increase its coal-fired power plants to almost 1,100 gigawatts, which is three times the coal-fired capacity of the United States.

India 

As the world’s third largest emitter of greenhouse gases, India pledged as part of the Paris Agreement to reduce its carbon emission intensity (carbon emissions per unit of GDP) by 33 to 35 percent from 2005 levels by 2030.[viii] Also, by 2030, India intends to generate 40 percent of its electricity from non-fossil fuels, including nuclear power and renewable energy. Despite its intent to increase its non-fossil generation to 40 percent, coal is primarily used today and will continue to be used in the future. India has plans to build nearly 370 coal-fired power plants.[ix] Between 2006 and 2016, 139 gigawatts of coal-fired capacity was brought on-line.[x] The planned construction of an additional 178 gigawatts would make it nearly impossible for India to meet its climate promises. By developing all of the planned coal-fired capacity, India would increase its coal generating capacity by 123 percent.[xi]

only the United States has decreased its emissions from 2005 levels

[little2add]

6 hours ago, Era Might said:

He knows nothing of building political institutions, of diplomacy, of creating a foundation for the political crises of the time.

make no mistake he's (trump) no fool 

Edited June 9, 2017 by little2add

[Era Might]

1 hour ago, little2add said:

make no mistake he's (trump) no fool 

I agree, not a fool but a simpleton. A fool is a very aware man, complexly aware, which is why he mocks, in the case of a clown, or why he scandalizes, in the case of a holy fool. Trump is a man who's smart in only one way, he's not a fool. He's not dumb, just totally simple. He's the kind of person who has to go to great lengths to defend a single point, because his whole view of the world boils down to a single idea, and of course he can never admit he's wrong, because if his single idea is reality itself, as he believes, then everything he constructs around that idea is reality, too. That's why anything that doesn't revolve around Trump's view of himself is, of course, fake, lies, alternative facts. He has ascended to an office directly beneath Jesus, the leader of the free world. Everyone else is a loser beneath him, unless they pay him homage and fealty, like the "loyalty" Comey says Trump expected. Trump, in his own mind, is not so much a Fuhrer but an Incarnation, not a dictator but the revelation of the People in his person. What needs he an Establishment, a Press, a Party, when he has himself, the very embodiment of America, the self-made man, the spirit of Pittsburgh, of New York, of Jesus, even...Trump is the secular king of a nation of megapastors and their red-blooded saints.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Era Might

[little2add]

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

Trump is

the duly elected president of the United States , deal with it 

[Era Might]

1 hour ago, little2add said:

the duly elected president of the United States , deal with it 

So what? I'm a citizen of the United States. Nobody elected me, and nobody will take it away from me. Political office is beneath citizenship. He answers to me, not me to him.

And it does amaze me that we have routine and public hearings where public officials must answer to the public. That is why we need to protect both the press and the independent separation of powers, and must defend it against Trump's la-la-land.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Era Might