No longer options for parents to refuse vaccinies with aborted fetal cells

[havok579257]

So we previously had avoided some vaccines for our children due to them being made with aborted fetal cells.  Our state has a reglious exemption in place.  We thought we were fine.  Although now we have learned that if our children do not get the chicken pox vaccine (has aborted fetal cells in it) and someone in his school who they comes into close contact (essentially the entire school) with then they are barred from going to school for 21 days per the health department.  So any time anyone has chicken pox at his school our children are forced to stay out of school for 3 weeks.  The relgious exemption is a joke because the health department is essentially forcing us to get the vaccine.  Cause all it takes is just 2 kids in the entire school to chicken pox and our kids have to miss a month and a half of school.  Guess parent choice goes ouot the window now.

 

Not to mention our last pediatrician changed policy on us and said if you don't get every vaccine that they deem necessary then they refuse to see our children.  Not to mention our current pediatrician says the same thing.  So now we are essentially forced to get the vaccines or just choose a pediatrician we know nothing about and none of our friends would recommend.

 

So infurriating 

[hotpink]

Yeah.....noooo.

The quarantine is based off of medical science.  Chicken pox is a disease that can cause shingles later in life. Because the vaccine is not perfect, a child with chicken pox is just a plague-ridden germ fest.  No vaccine basically means they will get it.  YOU might be willing to take that risk, but others don't want your child being a carrier.  Too bad, so sad. Their job is to protect the lowest common denominator....the immuno-comprimised kids.  Pay for private schooling, pay for a tutor, pay for homeschooling.  Don't whine because you can't get free school.

And as far as the pediatrician....why are you offended that they are defending their beliefs?  Maybe you'll have to drive more, maybe you'll have to pay more, but you can find a pedi who won't require shots.

[havok579257]

52 minutes ago, hotpink said:

Yeah.....noooo.

The quarantine is based off of medical science.  Chicken pox is a disease that can cause shingles later in life. Because the vaccine is not perfect, a child with chicken pox is just a plague-ridden germ fest.  No vaccine basically means they will get it.  YOU might be willing to take that risk, but others don't want your child being a carrier.  Too bad, so sad. Their job is to protect the lowest common denominator....the immuno-comprimised kids.  Pay for private schooling, pay for a tutor, pay for homeschooling.  Don't whine because you can't get free school.

And as far as the pediatrician....why are you offended that they are defending their beliefs?  Maybe you'll have to drive more, maybe you'll have to pay more, but you can find a pedi who won't require shots.

the fact is the government requires children to be vaccinated but only offer unethical vaccinations.  other countries have ethical vaccines.  its not hard to make them but its cheaper to use cloned aborted fetal cell and as everyone knows, its the lobbiests who decide the laws in this country, not the people.  although that seems to be ok with the majority of americans.  most americans just do what they are told and follow along blindedly choosing instead to be blissfully ignorant.

 

so according to your rationale every adult should be mandated to get the chicken pox vaccines because of the fear of the elderly with their comprimised immune system.  i mean someone who is 70/80/90/100 is way more liklely tohave serious complications from shingles than a healthy 8 year old.  should we put people in jail if they refuse the vaccines?  its probobly a good idea.  heck, its probobly a good idea to put them in jail if they won't do everything the government wants.  just to be on the safe side.

 

also if they are so worried about kids getting chicken pox then please tell me why the cdc refuses to vaccinate anyone under 1 years of age?  an infant is way more likely to have severe complications from chicken pox then an 8 year old is.  if its such a big deal, why won't they vaccinate anyone under one?  

 

i am offended by the pediatricians because doctors who treat only adults don't pull this croutons because they can't get away with it.  doctors who treat adult patients don't force adult patients to do everything they say or refuse to  treat them.  although the majority of pediatrcians pull this because they can get away with it because they are in a specialty field.  also right now the HPV vaccine is only recommended by pediatricians.  although i forsee this being mandated in the future.  i am sure you will think they are right to mandate a vaccine that only protects people who have sex.  i mean we should also probobly force kids to carry condoms and birth controls with them to school.  i mean if the government says its right, who can argue with that...

[hotpink]

1 hour ago, havok579257 said:

the fact is the government requires children to be vaccinated but only offer unethical vaccinations.  other countries have ethical vaccines.  its not hard to make them but its cheaper to use cloned aborted fetal cell and as everyone knows, its the lobbiests who decide the laws in this country, not the people.  although that seems to be ok with the majority of americans.  most americans just do what they are told and follow along blindedly choosing instead to be blissfully ignorant.

 

so according to your rationale every adult should be mandated to get the chicken pox vaccines because of the fear of the elderly with their comprimised immune system.  i mean someone who is 70/80/90/100 is way more liklely tohave serious complications from shingles than a healthy 8 year old.  should we put people in jail if they refuse the vaccines?  its probobly a good idea.  heck, its probobly a good idea to put them in jail if they won't do everything the government wants.  just to be on the safe side.

 

also if they are so worried about kids getting chicken pox then please tell me why the cdc refuses to vaccinate anyone under 1 years of age?  an infant is way more likely to have severe complications from chicken pox then an 8 year old is.  if its such a big deal, why won't they vaccinate anyone under one?  

 

i am offended by the pediatricians because doctors who treat only adults don't pull this croutons because they can't get away with it.  doctors who treat adult patients don't force adult patients to do everything they say or refuse to  treat them.  although the majority of pediatrcians pull this because they can get away with it because they are in a specialty field.  also right now the HPV vaccine is only recommended by pediatricians.  although i forsee this being mandated in the future.  i am sure you will think they are right to mandate a vaccine that only protects people who have sex.  i mean we should also probobly force kids to carry condoms and birth controls with them to school.  i mean if the government says its right, who can argue with that...

You want a free government service, school.  If you want free government elder care, then you also have to play by their rules.  Free comes with rules.  They have science to back it.

Pediatricians are only going to do what's best for business.  Calm down and start making calls.  You can find a doctor who is happy to take your money IF you make a reasonable and logical decision.  Also, many of the vaccine preventable diseases won't cause death or disfigurement.  I think it would be reasonable for a doctor to refuse to treat a machinist who didn't get the tetanus vaccine.   Doctors do refuse adults all the time...ones who won't take meds, ones who take drugs or drink too much.  Once a patient becomes a liability, they back off.  Also, you don't need a pedi.  I never went to one.  You can have your kids see a GP who takes children.

You're taking it personally.  It's not personal.  It's business.

And, you can order the vaccines from other countries...it costs like $700, but I know people who do it.

Also, before the age of one the immune system is underdeveloped.  It means that before that age the antibodies won't be developed.  You are sounding very uneducated.

The HPV vaccine gives me the geebies, not because of sex, but because it's poorly tested. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by hotpink

[Maggyie]

The Catholic Church is fine with your kids getting all their vaccinations. Yes, the way the vaccines came into being is not good, but that doesn't mean we can't use them. Please educate yourself on the teaching of our church and get your kids vaxxed asap!

[havok579257]

2 hours ago, hotpink said:

You want a free government service, school.  If you want free government elder care, then you also have to play by their rules.  Free comes with rules.  They have science to back it.

Pediatricians are only going to do what's best for business.  Calm down and start making calls.  You can find a doctor who is happy to take your money IF you make a reasonable and logical decision.  Also, many of the vaccine preventable diseases won't cause death or disfigurement.  I think it would be reasonable for a doctor to refuse to treat a machinist who didn't get the tetanus vaccine.   Doctors do refuse adults all the time...ones who won't take meds, ones who take drugs or drink too much.  Once a patient becomes a liability, they back off.  Also, you don't need a pedi.  I never went to one.  You can have your kids see a GP who takes children.

You're taking it personally.  It's not personal.  It's business.

And, you can order the vaccines from other countries...it costs like $700, but I know people who do it.

Also, before the age of one the immune system is underdeveloped.  It means that before that age the antibodies won't be developed.  You are sounding very uneducated.

The HPV vaccine gives me the geebies, not because of sex, but because it's poorly tested. 

public school is a free government service?  maybe your very confused but public school is not a free government service.  you do understand how much money the average person pays in taxes that goes to public schools?  Public school is not free and you don't have the choice to not pay for the public school.  If I choose to send my child to private school, I still have to pay for public school.  I really am baffled how you are under the assumption that public school is free.  In your mind who pays for it?

 

Pediatricians and doctors in general are not going to do what's only good for the patient.  I work in the medical field with doctors.  They doctors are heavily influenced by the pharmacutical companies.  They choose to push center medications over others because of what the pharms decide.  

 

Also adult doctors don't refuse adult patients no matter if they won't take their medications or not.  You obviously don't know a lot about the healthcare system in america.  Do you know how many patients I have dealt with in my career who refuse to take their medications, who are chronic drug or etoh abusers and so on.  I have worked with hundreads of doctors in my career and they have not refused to care for those patients.  Oh sure they treated them like croutons, or let them have it but they never refused medical care to someone because they didn't follow every rule they said.

 

Your comment about kids under one not getting the vaccines doesn't jive since kids do get vaccines under one just not all vaccines.  So who is sounding un-educated since you don't know infant actually do get some vaccines under one?   

13 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

The Catholic Church is fine with your kids getting all their vaccinations. Yes, the way the vaccines came into being is not good, but that doesn't mean we can't use them. Please educate yourself on the teaching of our church and get your kids vaxxed asap!

I am fully aware what the catholic church's position is on using vaccines which contain aborted fetal cells.  

 

 

[hotpink]

Havok, you obviously have a chip on your shoulder.

Yes, public school is paid for by taxes.  So is the fire department.  That doesn't mean you should burn down your house because they'll come put it out for free.  People pay school taxes even if they don't have kids.  People pay school taxes even if they move to town as seniors.  You want a free service, follow the rules.

Doctors are influenced by drug companies but also by liability claims....and by personal belief.  The doctors today tend to be very socialist. A buddy of mine became a psychiatrist because he wanted to be a doctor but didn't want to listen to yet *another* lecture about how much abortionists were needed.

I never said that they don't get vaccines.  I just said that they have underdeveloped (note, not non existent) immune systems that can't make antibodies efficiently.  So most vaccines are administered after a year when the immune system becomes more complete.   There's actually a reason for the WHO recommending nursing for up to a year, because there's evidence that breast feeding gives the child antibodies (that die quickly) that the mother has.  I think that's freaking cool, although I'm a guy so apparently talking about breastfeeding is too creepy for most people to handle, even when done scientifically in appropriate circumstances. 

 

Adult doctors can, and do, offboard patients for any reason they wish.  https://www.verywell.com/can-my-doctor-fire-or-dismiss-me-as-a-patient-2615017  This is America.  My friend has had to terminate clients/patient relationships.  It probably happens more in psych, but it happens way more than you seem to think.

 

 

Also, since YOUR church approves of the vaccines, this is not a religious issue, but a personal belief one.

[havok579257]

1 hour ago, hotpink said:

Havok, you obviously have a chip on your shoulder.

Yes, public school is paid for by taxes.  So is the fire department.  That doesn't mean you should burn down your house because they'll come put it out for free.  People pay school taxes even if they don't have kids.  People pay school taxes even if they move to town as seniors.  You want a free service, follow the rules.

Doctors are influenced by drug companies but also by liability claims....and by personal belief.  The doctors today tend to be very socialist. A buddy of mine became a psychiatrist because he wanted to be a doctor but didn't want to listen to yet *another* lecture about how much abortionists were needed.

I never said that they don't get vaccines.  I just said that they have underdeveloped (note, not non existent) immune systems that can't make antibodies efficiently.  So most vaccines are administered after a year when the immune system becomes more complete.   There's actually a reason for the WHO recommending nursing for up to a year, because there's evidence that breast feeding gives the child antibodies (that die quickly) that the mother has.  I think that's freaking cool, although I'm a guy so apparently talking about breastfeeding is too creepy for most people to handle, even when done scientifically in appropriate circumstances. 

 

Adult doctors can, and do, offboard patients for any reason they wish.  https://www.verywell.com/can-my-doctor-fire-or-dismiss-me-as-a-patient-2615017  This is America.  My friend has had to terminate clients/patient relationships.  It probably happens more in psych, but it happens way more than you seem to think.

 

 

Also, since YOUR church approves of the vaccines, this is not a religious issue, but a personal belief one.

again, public school is not free.  your misusing the word free.  if its free, i shouldn't have to pay anything to have my kids go to the school, no fees, no taxes, no anything.  although we both know that, that isn't true.  just because your don't pay an up front cost like a private school does not mean you don't pay anything.  

i wouldn't put much stock in the WHO since they support abortion.  oh my bad, i forgot murdering an infant in the womb is considered healthcare.

psych doctors and medical doctors are not the same and their standards are not the same.  if doctors refused to see all patients who did not follow their orders their would be so many doctors out of business.  so many patients do not follow their doctors advice on stopping drug use, stoping etoh abuse, taking their medications and so on.  etoh abuse, drug abuse and refusing to take medications are some of the biggest issues facing the healthcare system in america.  although according to your logic, all these people are being refused care.

also i never said MY church forbid vaccines. 

 

at the end of the day the government mandates vaccines for childhood education but does not mandate ethical vaccines.  its not an issues of nothing ethical being offered since many other countries offer only ethical vaccines.  its a matter of bowing to the lobbiests.  the ones who really run this country. 

[Guest]

It seems to me that we keep running after a bolted horse.  We need to argue for when human life begins legally and then having established through logical and scientific arguments that human life begins at conception, we have a strong irrefutable argument against unethical vaccines for one.  In fact by implication unethical vaccines etc. would be illegal in the first place.

What seems to me to be happening is arguments against abortion are made using the shock element of foetuses in the uterus being aborted etc. and highly emotive type arguments against abortion by highly emotional and very angry people.  It just isn't working in my book.  Many years ago, a psychiatrist told me that I had something to say, but because I was saying it highly emotionally and very angrily, people just switched off  in order to back right away from my anger and did not hear one bit of the sound argument I was making - but in an abortive manner.

If people do not believe that human life begins at conception, of course there is no argument against unethical vaccines to be presented.

[hotpink]

You're not even listening anymore.  It is free to enroll a child in public school.  There are many low income people who pay no taxes.....so school is free from them.  So, go live in poverty so you don't pay taxes and school will be "free".  Your taxes are your contribution to society, regardless of the quantity of children you have.  You pay taxes for many things.  Taxes do NOT allow you to dictate public safety rules.  You sound like the kind of person to give my cousin (who's a cop) attitude over a speeding ticket because "don't you know I pay your salary?" 

Do you think paying taxes allows you to speed?  You pay for the roads (with your taxes).  You pay for the cops (with your taxes).  You pay for your car.

I gave you a link.  It is up to you to read.  Doctors can, and do, fire their patients for non-compliance.  They are not allowed to fire based on gender, sex, race, etc, but doctors drop people from practices all the time.  Yet you hit the nail on the head.  If doctors "fired" their adult patients that were not compliant, they'd go out of business.  So they don't.  They can fire child patients without the fear of going out of business.  Its a money proposition.  If I knew a staunch, ignorant anti-vaxxer was going to my nephew's pedi, I'd tell my brother to get him the heck out of there.  In my part of the country there have been really dangerous mumps outbreaks.

 

My thoughts?  You WANT to play the martyr.  You want to be the poor, persecuted Christian.  A simple Google search of "Alternates to fetal cell vaccines" will get you plenty of hits.  I used Google.  Try it sometime.  Also, look at this link http://www.dgwsoft.co.uk/homepages/vaccines/usvaccines.html

You want change?  Advocate for it.  Make your friends and family aware of the alternatives so they use them, demand them, and doctors start stocking them.  Don't act like you're being persecuted.  You're not.  

Other countries  have different rules.  My sister-in-law home schools.  It's illegal to homeschool in some countries.  Would you rather have the freedom to choose your child's educator or to have a vaccine of your approval freely available (ie not special order).  I think that the way that people in Finland and the Netherlands treat the early school experience (for kids 3-10) is amazing.  But what you don't see is that it's basically impossible for a parent to say no to that....or even take their 2yo out of state child care while they are on maternity leave.  They get a year of it, but they are expected to drop their small child off for the day while they tend to the baby as soon as they are release from the hospital.  A woman I went to college with (she was a foreign student) said that she would of traded her year maternity leave for 3 months if it meant she got to have both her children with her.   She wishes she could be a stay-at-home-mom....but she can't.  Society doesn't let her. No country is going to be perfect.  There's always something that is a huge drawback. 

[Deus te Amat]

My hubby is a doctor (very Catholic) and I asked him about this recently. His response was that though fetal cells were used to create the original vaccine, the vaccines currently in use are from those cell lines, but have been split so many times that the original cells are no longer present. The amount of fetus in the vaccine your child will receive is negligible, which is why the Catholic Church and Pope Benedict say its okay for Catholics to be vaccinated using vaccines created using fetal cells. 

It seems to me that refusing to vaccinate your kids for the reason of "fetal cells" is akin to refusing to eat produce because the soil in which they were grown was fertilized by decomposing bodies that died and were buried long ago.

 

[McM RSCJ]

Havoc,

1.  I do not think you can find a well-trained Catholic Moral Theologian whose analyses are vetted and respected by the best in the field who will conclude parents cannot vaccinate children against chicken-pox.

2.  Please do not, therefore, tell any Pediatrician that you need a "religious exemption" because of Catholic Moral Teaching.  That would not be accurate.

3.  Perhaps you and your spouse have not had chicken-pox (and, if not, probably because you were vaccinated), so you may not have direct experience of the disease.  I remember how sick I was as a child when I had chicken-pox (before there was a vaccine).  I also know how sick and in how much pain I was several years ago with Shingles and post-herpetic pain which lasted several years--and I have permanent lesions from Shingles.  

4.  If your concern is to protect life in the womb, how do you reconcile your decision to send your children into the world without the vaccine when, for example, your children, if exposed, could cause serious harms to a pregnant woman (schoolteacher?) and her fetus, especially in the early months of her pregnancy?  See Mayo Clinic website.  The disease is highly contagious.  

5.  How will you reconcile your decision should your children, once adults, contract chicken-pox and become seriously ill, perhaps with organ failure.  See Mayo Clinic website.

6.  If your children decide to become vaccinated once they turn eighteen, will you hold that against them?

7.  The first principle of Catholic Social teaching is respect for the dignity and freedom of each person, yes.  But the second principles have to do with our obligation to build the community of communities and contribute to the Common Good.  As for myself, I would be glad to have a physician who tried to balance both.   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by McM RSCJ

[havok579257]

3 hours ago, McM RSCJ said:

Havoc,

1.  I do not think you can find a well-trained Catholic Moral Theologian whose analyses are vetted and respected by the best in the field who will conclude parents cannot vaccinate children against chicken-pox.

2.  Please do not, therefore, tell any Pediatrician that you need a "religious exemption" because of Catholic Moral Teaching.  That would not be accurate.

3.  Perhaps you and your spouse have not had chicken-pox (and, if not, probably because you were vaccinated), so you may not have direct experience of the disease.  I remember how sick I was as a child when I had chicken-pox (before there was a vaccine).  I also know how sick and in how much pain I was several years ago with Shingles and post-herpetic pain which lasted several years--and I have permanent lesions from Shingles.  

4.  If your concern is to protect life in the womb, how do you reconcile your decision to send your children into the world without the vaccine when, for example, your children, if exposed, could cause serious harms to a pregnant woman (schoolteacher?) and her fetus, especially in the early months of her pregnancy?  See Mayo Clinic website.  The disease is highly contagious.  

5.  How will you reconcile your decision should your children, once adults, contract chicken-pox and become seriously ill, perhaps with organ failure.  See Mayo Clinic website.

6.  If your children decide to become vaccinated once they turn eighteen, will you hold that against them?

7.  The first principle of Catholic Social teaching is respect for the dignity and freedom of each person, yes.  But the second principles have to do with our obligation to build the community of communities and contribute to the Common Good.  As for myself, I would be glad to have a physician who tried to balance both.   

 

 

 

 

 

1. You don't read obviously because I never said anything of the sort.

2. No where does the church say you are obligated to get the vaccines.  The church leaves it up to the parents and you can refuse vaccines due to religious reasons. No where does the church say a catholic can not refuse vaccines due to religious reasons. 

 

3. So because you had a bad experience with shingles should we mandate and force adults to get the shingles vaccines?  Are you for government forcing vaccines on adults who have not had the chicken pox or shingles vaccine?

 

4. Wait your advocating children be vaccinated for Chickenpox but not the teacher? Explain to me if chicken pox is so deadly (your over exaggerating) then why oh why is the pregnant women not getting the chicken pox vaccine? So now my children. Are responsible if an adult chooses not to get the vaccine?  Is that seriously your arguement? 

 

5. You are severely over exaggerating the likelihood of complications and death from chicken pox. You need to read up in medical journals if you think chicken pox is one of the most deadliest diseases ever (as u seem to imply). Also when my children are an adult they are responsible for their own actions. I believe in personal responsibility. When kids are adults will you still be making decisions for them?

 

6. Why would i? They are adults and make their own decisions.  Why would I judge others? That's not God's teachings.

 

7. Obviously you did not read what I wrote because pediatricians are not trying to balance both 

[hotpink]

So basically, you think you know better than everyone else.  Feel like your beliefs, that even your own church doesn't back, are more important than the safety and comfort of everyone else.

Again it's like the driving.  You feel entitled to do what you want because you feel that your taxes give you the right to all the services you are providing for others.

The truth seems to be you have a problem with the chicken pox vaccine.  A problem that CAN'T be remedied by your church telling you the vaccine is ok, by the fact you CAN get it else ware or anything.  

You refuse to believe because a handful of doctor's won't support your decisions that they are in the wrong.  If a doctor said that he was not treating you if you ate meat would you be as rabidly angry?

You keep throwing out the non-medical issue of limiting vaccines before the age of one.  So what other vaccines that we don't give before 1 do you have an issue with? Tetnus? MMR? Hep A? (waterborne) Tdap? (Dapt is given to babies). 

You don't believe it's a threat.  But to my nephew's best friend your kid is a time bomb. 

https://www.cdc.gov/mumps/outbreaks.html

You see that big red state up in the upper left?  That's where I live.  http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-disneyland-measles-under-vaccination-20150316-story.html  Measles killed one women and so far we've had over a few hundred cases.

Edited May 22, 2017 by hotpink

[havok579257]

1 hour ago, hotpink said:

So basically, you think you know better than everyone else.  Feel like your beliefs, that even your own church doesn't back, are more important than the safety and comfort of everyone else.

Again it's like the driving.  You feel entitled to do what you want because you feel that your taxes give you the right to all the services you are providing for others.

The truth seems to be you have a problem with the chicken pox vaccine.  A problem that CAN'T be remedied by your church telling you the vaccine is ok, by the fact you CAN get it else ware or anything.  

You refuse to believe because a handful of doctor's won't support your decisions that they are in the wrong.  If a doctor said that he was not treating you if you ate meat would you be as rabidly angry?

You keep throwing out the non-medical issue of limiting vaccines before the age of one.  So what other vaccines that we don't give before 1 do you have an issue with? Tetnus? MMR? Hep A? (waterborne) Tdap? (Dapt is given to babies). 

You don't believe it's a threat.  But to my nephew's best friend your kid is a time bomb. 

https://www.cdc.gov/mumps/outbreaks.html

You see that big red state up in the upper left?  That's where I live.  http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-disneyland-measles-under-vaccination-20150316-story.html  Measles killed one women and so far we've had over a few hundred cases.

please show me where the church advises all parents to vaccinate all their children with all vaccines that are made?  I would love to see it since you keep claiming that's what the church teaches.  I'll patiently wait for you to find the document from the church that says we advise all parents to vaccinate all of their children with all vaccines that a doctor tell them to.