Honor Your Father and Mother

[Era Might]

Anyone have any spiritual thoughts on the Gospel call to honor your parents, specifically when you have a difficult parent? Often Saints put up with a lot from their parents, as Jesus bore mens' stupidity and arrogance. This is one among many reasons I'll never be a saint. But, if the Gospel is to be taken seriously, Jesus upbraided the pharisees for their fake religiosity with the corban. So, what does it really mean to honor mother and father? I often think of St. Francis telling his father he has only one father now, in heaven, and Jesus himself distanced himself from family ties. There is a tension in the Gospel between family and Christ.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Era Might

[CatherineM]

There is the baseline that the parents are worthy of that honor thus being honor-able. If they aren't, different ballgame 

[hotpink]

Sometimes honor means not engaging.  I think this is reflected in the whole "near occasion of sin" model.  We have to remember that our weakness can be an opportunity for others to sin.  If we cannot help but be a pushover or a lightning rod for bad behavior, then it is imperative we remove ourselves from being the cause of sin for someone.

[vee]

Pray for them, even if all you can manage is one little prayer. If you can't even manage one little prayer for them ask God for the ability to do even that  

[Luigi]

For any person, your father & mother have always been your father & mother, and they always will be. God put you into a relationship with them when you were born - whether you asked for those particular parents or not. You're in a permanent relationship with your parents - it's like you're married to them, or like you're living in a monastery with them. In the same way that the Church doesn't accept divorce (you're supposed to stay in the relationship and help your spouse improve as a person), you really can't divorce your parents either (you have to stay in the relationship).

Now. Parents are only human. Which means they're imperfect. Sinners. Some more so than others. But the "honor your mother and father" model is similar to living in a monastery - a school of charity. Nuns & monks have to learn to get along with each other; they have to learn to tolerate each other's weakness; they have to learn to forgive each other. Under ideal conditions, the parents would teach all this to their children, but I've known a number of parents who didn't - perfectionists, alcoholics, tormented souls... dysfunctional in one way or another. 

It may seem counterintuitive, or bass-ackwards, for the child to take on the role of teacher - the one calling the parents to become better people. And depending on the extent of a parent's dysfunction, a child really can't take on that role. But we're all supposed to be sowers of good seed - that's all any of us can be; on the other hand, some parents are mighty rocky ground! We've got to try to sow good seed with our parents, but it doesn't mean that we're responsible for their choices. (The same is true of parents & children - I know plenty of children who were raised up right by just about any standard, but made some pretty bad choices in their lives. The parents were responsible for sowing good seed, but the children are responsible for their own choices.) 

So to me, "honor your father and mother" means to: 

- stay in relationship with them,

- learn to tolerate them, recognizing that they're only imperfect human sinners,

- try to call them to become better persons,

- and take care of them if they need you. 

If one gets along well with her folks, that's actually pretty easy. And you can throw in niceties like bringing them unexpected little gifts and all that happy horse hockey. If one doesn't get along well with them, then trying to stay in relationship (without letting them hurt you) and learning to tolerate them, et cetera, may be your cross to bear - the main project of your Christian development. 

And remember that we all have another Father in heaven; one who isn't an imperfect human sinner. So we can go to our heavenly Father about how to deal with our not-so-heavenly father. 

 

 

[Maximilianus]

On April 22, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Era Might said:

Anyone have any spiritual thoughts on the Gospel call to honor your parents, specifically when you have a difficult parent? Often Saints put up with a lot from their parents, as Jesus bore mens' stupidity and arrogance. This is one among many reasons I'll never be a saint. But, if the Gospel is to be taken seriously, Jesus upbraided the pharisees for their fake religiosity with the corban. So, what does it really mean to honor mother and father? I often think of St. Francis telling his father he has only one father now, in heaven, and Jesus himself distanced himself from family ties. There is a tension in the Gospel between family and Christ.

Family is never easy, relationships with parents can be even more difficult. The mandate to honor your parents from the Gospel comes down to ultimately treating your parents with dignity and respect. One has to handle their relationship with thier parents tailored in way that the dignity and respect of both parties are not compromised. So I guess it all comes down to what is said in the Lord's Prayer; " forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Ultimately you owe your parents a level of respect ordered by God, but parents being sinners and human do not get a pass, parents must be held accountable at some level for the good and the bad, but that accountability has to be tempered with forgiveness and  mercy. 

 

[little2add]

Is there a parent alive who has not made mistakes? It’s time to let Mom and Dad down off the wedding cake and into the world of mere humans. Besides, you’re an alleged grown-up now, and it’s time to stop living your life as a reaction to what used to be.

 

[hotpink]

8 hours ago, Luigi said:

For any person, your father & mother have always been your father & mother, and they always will be. God put you into a relationship with them when you were born - whether you asked for those particular parents or not. You're in a permanent relationship with your parents - it's like you're married to them, or like you're living in a monastery with them. In the same way that the Church doesn't accept divorce (you're supposed to stay in the relationship and help your spouse improve as a person), you really can't divorce your parents either (you have to stay in the relationship).

Now. Parents are only human. Which means they're imperfect. Sinners. Some more so than others. But the "honor your mother and father" model is similar to living in a monastery - a school of charity. Nuns & monks have to learn to get along with each other; they have to learn to tolerate each other's weakness; they have to learn to forgive each other. Under ideal conditions, the parents would teach all this to their children, but I've known a number of parents who didn't - perfectionists, alcoholics, tormented souls... dysfunctional in one way or another. 

It may seem counterintuitive, or bass-ackwards, for the child to take on the role of teacher - the one calling the parents to become better people. And depending on the extent of a parent's dysfunction, a child really can't take on that role. But we're all supposed to be sowers of good seed - that's all any of us can be; on the other hand, some parents are mighty rocky ground! We've got to try to sow good seed with our parents, but it doesn't mean that we're responsible for their choices. (The same is true of parents & children - I know plenty of children who were raised up right by just about any standard, but made some pretty bad choices in their lives. The parents were responsible for sowing good seed, but the children are responsible for their own choices.) 

So to me, "honor your father and mother" means to: 

- stay in relationship with them,

- learn to tolerate them, recognizing that they're only imperfect human sinners,

- try to call them to become better persons,

- and take care of them if they need you. 

If one gets along well with her folks, that's actually pretty easy. And you can throw in niceties like bringing them unexpected little gifts and all that happy horse hockey. If one doesn't get along well with them, then trying to stay in relationship (without letting them hurt you) and learning to tolerate them, et cetera, may be your cross to bear - the main project of your Christian development. 

And remember that we all have another Father in heaven; one who isn't an imperfect human sinner. So we can go to our heavenly Father about how to deal with our not-so-heavenly father. 

 

 

Are you kidding me?

Just no.

God never requires us to stay in an abusive relationship.  Ever.  For any reason.

Your whole divorce nonsense doesn't even apply.  God hates divorce because it's a breaking of  convenant.  Children do not have a convenant relationship with their parents.

so points

-NO.  just NO.  WE are not required to stay in a relationship with anyone who harms us, period.

-tolerate them?  Sure, to what is healthy.  Tolerance can be doing the right thing for their soul and not cause the parent to sin.  

-Call them to be better persons?  Well, I guess you could do that through just prayer.

-Again, NO.  Even with parent who isn't intentionally abusive (ie dementia) sometimes the BEST thing a child can do is have someone else care for them.

 

Religion like you peddle is why so many of the young adults I mentor are in seriously bad situations.  It's a terrible, impossible trap, and you leave no room for an adult child way to protect themselves.

[vee]

4 hours ago, little2add said:

it’s time to stop living your life as a reaction to what used to be.

 

You're assuming the problems are in the past which may or may not be the case with era I don't know. That's not the case with everyone though as some parents can still have a problematic way of acting or thinking even if they are seniors. 

[little2add]

A mother and child reunion is only a heartbeat away

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pa5H_4lBXs

 

[Era Might]

Just to clarify, because some people seem to be taking my OP this way, I'm not talking about extreme cases of a bad parent, nor was I talking about resentments from the past. I was talking about parents with difficult personalities, or parents with a certain idea of the world that creates ongoing conflict. 

@Luigi and @Maximilianus posts above have some great thoughts, I'll try to unpack them some more in another post. I really like the comparison to monastic life. I guess there might be some gender variances in how this question is approached. A man and his father, two grown men, is a different dynamic than a female and mother, etc. I think friendship with your parents is neither necessary nor inevitable. Some parents and children just have different lives, even if they love each other, and some parents and kids are friends, even if they "hate" each other.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Era Might

[little2add]

When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.

Mark Twain

 

[hotpink]

On 4/24/2017 at 0:19 PM, Era Might said:

Just to clarify, because some people seem to be taking my OP this way, I'm not talking about extreme cases of a bad parent, nor was I talking about resentments from the past. I was talking about parents with difficult personalities, or parents with a certain idea of the world that creates ongoing conflict. 

@Luigi and @Maximilianus posts above have some great thoughts, I'll try to unpack them some more in another post. I really like the comparison to monastic life. I guess there might be some gender variances in how this question is approached. A man and his father, two grown men, is a different dynamic than a female and mother, etc. I think friendship with your parents is neither necessary nor inevitable. Some parents and children just have different lives, even if they love each other, and some parents and kids are friends, even if they "hate" each other.

Good to know @Era Might.  That said, do you think that @Luigi and @Maximilianus should clarify that one should never stay in an abusive relationship.  This board is for teenagers and it would be terrible that they would get the impression that they *must* stay in a relationship, any one, that is abusive.

Anyway, back at it.  I do think some things like the book "How to talk so your teens will listen" can be a good model for young adults to speak to their parents.  Also, Blimeycow.

[little2add]

On 4/22/2017 at 2:59 PM, Era Might said:

Gospel call to honor your parents

I will always respect and honor my parents and/or my children unconditionally!

family is everything and now that I'm an adult I see the wisdom in the forth commandment.

even if it is only one way.  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfzYn344gVw

My Father's Eye By Eric Clapton

( good tune, give it a listen)

 

Another importation tune by Clapton

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mk7QIsOBsOM

 

[Era Might]

On 4/23/2017 at 11:31 PM, Luigi said:

For any person, your father & mother have always been your father & mother, and they always will be. God put you into a relationship with them when you were born - whether you asked for those particular parents or not. You're in a permanent relationship with your parents - it's like you're married to them, or like you're living in a monastery with them. In the same way that the Church doesn't accept divorce (you're supposed to stay in the relationship and help your spouse improve as a person), you really can't divorce your parents either (you have to stay in the relationship).

Now. Parents are only human. Which means they're imperfect. Sinners. Some more so than others. But the "honor your mother and father" model is similar to living in a monastery - a school of charity. Nuns & monks have to learn to get along with each other; they have to learn to tolerate each other's weakness; they have to learn to forgive each other. Under ideal conditions, the parents would teach all this to their children, but I've known a number of parents who didn't - perfectionists, alcoholics, tormented souls... dysfunctional in one way or another. 

It may seem counterintuitive, or bass-ackwards, for the child to take on the role of teacher - the one calling the parents to become better people. And depending on the extent of a parent's dysfunction, a child really can't take on that role. But we're all supposed to be sowers of good seed - that's all any of us can be; on the other hand, some parents are mighty rocky ground! We've got to try to sow good seed with our parents, but it doesn't mean that we're responsible for their choices. (The same is true of parents & children - I know plenty of children who were raised up right by just about any standard, but made some pretty bad choices in their lives. The parents were responsible for sowing good seed, but the children are responsible for their own choices.) 

So to me, "honor your father and mother" means to: 

- stay in relationship with them,

- learn to tolerate them, recognizing that they're only imperfect human sinners,

- try to call them to become better persons,

- and take care of them if they need you. 

If one gets along well with her folks, that's actually pretty easy. And you can throw in niceties like bringing them unexpected little gifts and all that happy horse hockey. If one doesn't get along well with them, then trying to stay in relationship (without letting them hurt you) and learning to tolerate them, et cetera, may be your cross to bear - the main project of your Christian development. 

And remember that we all have another Father in heaven; one who isn't an imperfect human sinner. So we can go to our heavenly Father about how to deal with our not-so-heavenly father. 

 

 

I have a lot to say on this topic, but will try to narrow on the most important points.

I think children are the unanswered questions of their parents. We do not create our own context of being. The unanswered question of rich parents might be, how to preserve our property and name. Elton John has a beautiful song about this, Levon, about a successful business man who's son Jesus just wants to blow up balloons and go to Venus. Levon is slowly dying, as all of the older generation are, and he has nobody to carry on his business. The unanswered questions of poor parents, are different.

Both parents and children are blinded by their contexts. Neither can communicate to the other what life was, or is, like. I see this with my nephews. They will never know their grandmother, not really, because the old woman she is now is not the real person she was 30 or 40 years ago.

Parents are naturally geared toward reproduction. They have no sense of a whole or an end. This is their gift and their curse, because they do what they have to do to survive, but they think that is the purpose of life, to survive. Jesus had a very different focus, not to survive but to live, and to live means to die. As Jesus says, the Gospel turns parent against child and child against parent, because the generations are different. The older generation is preparing to die, the younger generation is preparing to live. And both are under the same delusion that they are preparing for anything. Life is going on, in and around them, and always was.

I think you're right, that patient "putting up with" is key, because the contradiction between parents and children can't be solved. Parents and children both stand before God asking the same questions of life, neither any closer than the other. This is their equality. Jesus did not recognize his own mother and brother, only those who do the will of God. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Era Might