Magdala Apostolate (for religious & novices)

[BarbTherese]

"Now the ICC has launched a new and most praiseworthy venture which aims to provide free and ongoing doctrinal formation for women religious: the Magdala Apostolate."

Course is free to religious and novices.  It does depend financially on donations "an offering of great value to the Church, which has already benefited sisters from dozens of communities in the US, Canada and elsewhere."

The course includes "topics such as church history, theology, Scripture, and philosophy"

[Nunsuch]

Have they not heard of women scholars? I seriously find it demeaning and problematic when a program explicitly directed toward women is taught only by men, many of whom are not religious, and some of whom don't even have doctorates. There are hundreds (thousands?) of women with doctorates and distinguished scholarly records in the subjects offered here, but they could not find a single one to include as faculty? 

[Graciela]

Amen, Nunsuch!  Of course, given the conservatism of the communities involved, it is hardly surprising that the men (even though not holding the highest degree in their fields) teach and the good (read: meek) sisters listen. 

[Maggyie]

2 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

Have they not heard of women scholars? I seriously find it demeaning and problematic when a program explicitly directed toward women is taught only by men, many of whom are not religious, and some of whom don't even have doctorates. There are hundreds (thousands?) of women with doctorates and distinguished scholarly records in the subjects offered here, but they could not find a single one to include as faculty? 

Really, nothing positive to say? You've been a bit harsh lately on the choices other religious make for their communities. It is not that easy to find faculty for projects like this. First, just from knowing some of the communities featured, I know that the "mandatum" would be important to them. It can be enormously challenging to find scholars who will even admit one way or the other that they have the mandatum. Then there is the fact that these courses are taught for *free.* This is probably achieved by paying the faculty close to zero. Lastly because of the fact that it is has to be conducted as online learning, means that many potential faculty will be unwilling to participate. And I agree that there is something lost when you are staring at a screen instead of interacting in the same room with a teacher and classmates. But some professors just aren't comfortable with such innovations (or they might say, such deterioration). 

So when you are trying to get teachers to participate you are limited to those who meet the students needs and who also will say Yes. Whether enough of the teachers have uteruses like the students has to be a limited factor.

The students themselves seem satisfied and I think this is a great advancement for these women many of whom would receive very little high level theological education at all. I think it's very progressive (in the best sense!) that the people running this program and the superiors of communities recognize that high level education is important for formation both in and out of the cloister, that it was missing and they are taking steps to fill the gap. 

5 minutes ago, Graciela said:

Amen, Nunsuch!  Of course, given the conservatism of the communities involved, it is hardly surprising that the men (even though not holding the highest degree in their fields) teach and the good (read: meek) sisters listen. 

Obnoxious and rude. 

[Maggyie]

Really, the responses here prove that there are always going to be people with nasty small minds who want to sneer at the lifestyles and heritage of others who they don't understand. Even within the Church, we are burdened with people who sneer! 

[orapronobis]

Personally, I think you're over-reacting Maggyie, I agree that possibly the wording isn't the best. But there is nothing obnoxious or rude about sharing the opinion one holds when it could actually be valid, I'm currently studying theology as an A Level  (pre-university studies in the UK) and I have noticed a huge disparity in the ratio of male-female scholars mentioned in the syllabus, and yet every teacher I have ever had for the subject has been a female in a department of mostly females. You may not agree with the sentiment that the other posters have shared but I ask that in the name of Christian charity, you allow them to say what they have to say without accusing them of rudeness or overwhelming negativity. 

[Maggyie]

2 minutes ago, orapronobis said:

Personally, I think you're over-reacting Maggyie, I agree that possibly the wording isn't the best. But there is nothing obnoxious or rude about sharing the opinion one holds when it could actually be valid, I'm currently studying theology as an A Level  (pre-university studies in the UK) and I have noticed a huge disparity in the ratio of male-female scholars mentioned in the syllabus, and yet every teacher I have ever had for the subject has been a female in a department of mostly females. You may not agree with the sentiment that the other posters have shared but I ask that in the name of Christian charity, you allow them to say what they have to say without accusing them of rudeness or overwhelming negativity. 

Gracielas remarks in particular are judgmental and nasty. Clearly these women's very lives are offensive to her. 

As for Nunsuch, she rarely has a positive contribution to make about more heritage-focused, contemplative communities or their efforts. Her other posts in the last month  are a complaint that monastic communities in poor neighborhoods don't TRULY engage their environment. 

[vee]

After looking through the website I think it is a great service that is being offered to religious communities. A difficulty some communities may have is the live class format and fitting that into their schedule and wonder if they offer a video on demand aspect to the courses as well. 

As for some of the profs not having doctorates, I looked through every course they currently and previously offer and maybe one or two don't have their phd. Not a huge detriment. 

[Nunsuch]

Maggyie, I will not engage with you further, except to say that you seem to be reading my posts through your own judgmental lens. I did not realize that alternative perspectives were forbidden here, particularly those quite evidently not intended to judge religious "lifestyles." If they are, I will gladly withdraw from what you might prefer to be an echo chamber. 

[Maggyie]

Well I'm offering my own opinion of your ideological approach to religious life... diversity is important and you seem to think there is only "one right way" to do it. Liberal and conservative are inappropriate categories to divide women religious into. It's sad. Ironically in the past it's usually been more traditional elements who get cranky and can't appreciate the sincere efforts of women religious who don't wear habits for example. As I said, sad. Lent may be getting to you two. 

14 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

Maggyie, I will not engage with you further, except to say that you seem to be reading my posts through your own judgmental lens. I did not realize that alternative perspectives were forbidden here, particularly those quite evidently not intended to judge religious "lifestyles." If they are, I will gladly withdraw from what you might prefer to be an echo chamber. 

Might I suggest that you seem to prefer an echo chamber... if you offer a critique, don't be surprised when someone critiques you. Perhaps material for self reflection might be why you have a knee jerk critical attitude toward the way some women respond to their vocation. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Maggyie

[Nunsuch]

My final reply. I was NOT criticizing women at all, but an all-male institute. I said absolutely NOTHING about the women who might be enrolled (by choice or not) in this program. If you want to accuse me of something, at least let it relate in some explicit way to what I said. I said absolutely nothing about the women at all in my post, but ONLY about the all-male institute. I raised a question--why an all-male faculty for a program addressed solely to women? Can you please tell me what is wrong with such a question? Also, I have NO idea what ideology has to do with anything. Are you suggesting that all the qualified women theologians are on one side of the ideological spectrum? Because I certainly did not. I honestly see nothing ideological in what I wrote, unless you see recognizing there are competent women scholars as somehow "ideological" in and of itself.... Yikes. I'm done here.

[Maggyie]

15 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

My final reply. I was NOT criticizing women at all, but an all-male institute. I said absolutely NOTHING about the women who might be enrolled (by choice or not) in this program. If you want to accuse me of something, at least let it relate in some explicit way to what I said. I said absolutely nothing about the women at all in my post, but ONLY about the all-male institute. I raised a question--why an all-male faculty for a program addressed solely to women? Can you please tell me what is wrong with such a question? Also, I have NO idea what ideology has to do with anything. Are you suggesting that all the qualified women theologians are on one side of the ideological spectrum? Because I certainly did not. I honestly see nothing ideological in what I wrote, unless you see recognizing there are competent women scholars as somehow "ideological" in and of itself.... Yikes. I'm done here.

The subtext of your complaint is that these women religious are too stupid to know when they are being "demeaned." The subtext was perfectly clear because Graciela brought it out into the open by saying "Amen!" and adding her own bigoted sneer about these specific communities and the meek, good, quiet women religious. Could it be that the women who have chosen this program aren't feminists, aren't interested in gender theory, and don't care about the sex of their teachers? 

Anyway I look forward to the institute you will found stocked with *qualified* (mandatum-holding) female scholars willing to do online distance learning for peanuts. That would be a *positive* contribution you could make instead of nitpicking the way communities conduct their formation programs and overall religious life. 

[Graciela]

Wow, Maggyie, over-react much? 

It is 2017 and it is not bigoted, or sneering, or rude, to observe a very obvious disconnect between the women pupils and the all male faculty.  I wonder why you felt the need to resort to calling me sneering and bigoted for expressing my opinion about the absence of ANY women faculty (and there are many women who have earned ThD or STD or PhD degrees from highly respected universities who could be valuable teachers in such an endeavor). 

Who elected you the phatmass thought police?

[beatitude]

I'm locking this thread in order to keep Catholic vs. Catholic debate out of VS and to help us all have a holier Holy Week. Palm Sunday has just begun where I am, and it's only a few hours away for posters in the US. As a Mediator of Meh, I'd like to suggest we step back and think about how we want to welcome Jesus into Jerusalem. I have topics that I care about very much, but I still wouldn't want my most heated posts on those issues to be the banner that I wave when I see Him, and I'm guessing it's the same for other people. We're almost at the end of Lent, it's been a long fast, we're all probably more cranky than we should be, but let's remember we are also part of the same body of Christ and we're going to be honouring the Passion together and celebrating the Resurrection - arguments are out of place here.