Guitar Music at Mass

[Kateri89]

I think that every parish would do well to consider the power of music in evoking emotions and recollection.  It's just my opinion but I feel like a lot of parishes want to use guitars and drums to attract people but I frequently find that the choir is out of tune, off in timing, and not harmonizing well.  Furthermore, I also get the sense that they think this type of music will draw in younger people because it's more like the music we listen to but with all due respect, the music on mainstream radio (provided it's not vulgar) is much better.  I don't go to Mass because it's just like the world outside; in fact, I go there for the very opposite reason.  When I go to Mass, I know I'm encountering Christ in the most holy sacrifice and I want everything to be reflective of that, i.e. music, art, architecture, etc.  So while I don't want to sound so rigid that I feel guitars should be banned, I strongly prefer polyphony, chant, and some organ music.  To me, it just seems more ethereal.  I also like the fact that with polyphony and chant I can't really join in so instead I let the music fill me with love for the Mass and for Christ.

[beatitude]

1 hour ago, Kateri89 said:

I also get the sense that they think this type of music will draw in younger people because it's more like the music we listen to but with all due respect, the music on mainstream radio (provided it's not vulgar) is much better.  I don't go to Mass because it's just like the world outside; in fact, I go there for the very opposite reason.  When I go to Mass, I know I'm encountering Christ in the most holy sacrifice and I want everything to be reflective of that, i.e. music, art, architecture, etc.  So while I don't want to sound so rigid that I feel guitars should be banned, I strongly prefer polyphony, chant, and some organ music.

This is how I feel as well. I can remember being a Catholic teenager sitting in a confirmation class with catechists who were trying really hard to be hip and cool (and failing at it!), and just thinking, "But I'm here for confirmation. I don't need them to know about pop charts and the stuff everyone's watching on TV, I can hear about that at school lunchtimes."

I'm not rigidly anti-guitar either (I've been to a few Youth 2000 retreats in my time, which are solidly orthodox in their emphasis on Adoration, the rosary, and confession, but have guitars and drums). But while I was happy to go on retreat with Youth 2000, I wouldn't want that to be my regular liturgy. It's OK for a retreat to be a bit different, you even expect it, but it's not necessarily ideal for your day to day devotional life. My preference is still for chant, and I wish it were more widely taught and valued.

[dells_of_bittersweet]

1 hour ago, Kateri89 said:

I think that every parish would do well to consider the power of music in evoking emotions and recollection.  It's just my opinion but I feel like a lot of parishes want to use guitars and drums to attract people but I frequently find that the choir is out of tune, off in timing, and not harmonizing well.  Furthermore, I also get the sense that they think this type of music will draw in younger people because it's more like the music we listen to but with all due respect, the music on mainstream radio (provided it's not vulgar) is much better.  I don't go to Mass because it's just like the world outside; in fact, I go there for the very opposite reason.  When I go to Mass, I know I'm encountering Christ in the most holy sacrifice and I want everything to be reflective of that, i.e. music, art, architecture, etc.  So while I don't want to sound so rigid that I feel guitars should be banned, I strongly prefer polyphony, chant, and some organ music.  To me, it just seems more ethereal.  I also like the fact that with polyphony and chant I can't really join in so instead I let the music fill me with love for the Mass and for Christ.

Your comments about an absence of quality control in contemporary Christian music both in terms of composition and execution are well taken. I will be the first to complain about how terrible some of this music is. The reputation of contemporary Christian music has been seriously compromised by this. What I want to contribute to the conversation is how this music can be done well. I point you to Facedown by Matt Redman and Oceans by Hillsong. These are contemporary songs that have a sense of the ethereal to them. If more effort is put towards encouraging the programming of songs that have a sense of the sacred and in getting guitarist in a mindset of creating a sacred sound, much of these problems could go away. 

I likewise think that music at Mass should not be a reflection of the outside culture. There should be a sense of the sacred. Musicam Sacram speaks of " Adapting sacred music for those regions which possess a musical tradition of their own" not of replacing sacred music with secular music. There is a big difference between putting Christian words to a Metallica tune and playing common local instruments in a way that makes them sound sacred. Music is a language. When we are able to harmonize the musical traditions of the culture with sacred music, we are speaking in an idiom the people can understand. In the places I have been where praise and worship has been done well, the response from the young people has been overwhelming. In places where the execution is poor or the music is not actually contemporary but left over songs appealing to baby boomers, the response is one of revulsion. 

I also point out that Musicam Sacram places a heavy emphasis on the importance of congregational singing:

"15. The faithful fulfil their liturgical role by making that full, conscious and active participation which is demanded by the nature of the liturgy itself and which is, by reason of baptism, the right and duty of the Christian people. This participation (a) Should be above all internal, in the sense that by it the faithful join their mind to what they pronounce or hear, and cooperate with heavenly grace, (b) Must be, on the other hand, external also, that is, such as to show the internal participation by gestures and bodily attitudes, by the acclamations, responses and singing.The faithful should also be taught to unite themselves interiorly to what the ministers or choir sing, so that by listening to them they may raise their minds to God.""16. One cannot find anything more religious and more joyful in sacred celebrations than a whole congregation expressing its faith and devotion in song. Therefore the active participation of the whole people, which is shown in singing, is to be carefully promoted as follows: (a) It should first of all include acclamations, responses to the greetings of the priest and ministers and to the prayers of litany form, and also antiphons and psalms, refrains or repeated responses, hymns and canticles. (b) Through suitable instruction and practices, the people should be gradually led to a fuller—indeed, to a complete—participation in those parts of the singing which pertain to them. (c) Some of the people's song, however, especially if the faithful have not yet been sufficiently instructed, or if musical settings for several voices are used, can be handed over to the choir alone, provided that the people are not excluded from those parts that concern them. But the usage of entrusting to the choir alone the entire singing of the whole Proper and of the whole Ordinary, to the complete exclusion of the people's participation in the singing, is to be deprecated."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html

2 hours ago, bardegaulois said:

Aside from the hymn "Silent Night," can you name a piece of sacred music written for the guitar (the stuff in the OCP hymnal notwithstanding because its sacrality is questionable)? I can't name one. I can think, though, of plenty written for choir, organ, and/or orchestra without even having to think about it. So if you're going to crow on about how the St. Louis Jesuits are just as much sacred music as Allegri's Miserere even though they write in the style of Simon & Garfunkel (not that you have; I just have a suspicion that you might go there), then I challenge you to name a secular work written in the style of Allegri's Miserere.

I think our Evangelical brothers and sisters have done a better job learning how to make a sacred sound using contemporary genres, so the St. Louis Jesuits wouldn't really be my first example of good contemporary sacred music. However, I will speak a word in their defense: due to the incompetence of the average parish music department, most people have probably never heard their music played to its full potential. Also, I find the comparison to Simon and Garfunkel interesting. Perphaps their most enduring song is "Sound of Silence" and I believe this song is intended to have a sacred sound to it. Its the cry of the secular man's heart to find the spiritual. You should listen to the original recordings of Sing to the Mountains and Be Not Afraid and you will find a much more sacred sound than you normally experience in a Catholic parish. 

But, I emphasize that our Evangelical brothers and sisters have found a better way. Matt Maher and Audrey Assad, who are Catholics working alongside Evangelicals, have produced some phenomenal works. I recommend looking at New Every Morning, I Shall Not Want, Restless, and Garden for beautiful sacred songs with theologically rich lyrics. And for an Evangelical composer, look at Facedown by Matt Redman. 

There are many old hymns that are originally folk tunes, including:

-What Child Is This - originally Greensleeves

-Be Thou My Vision - Slane, originally With My Love on the Road

-I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say - Kingsfold, originally "Star of the Country Down"

The Guitar is the native instrument of American gospel, including such classics as "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms" and "Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus."

There are plenty of secular songs done in a polyphonic style. In fact, polyphony nearly got banned when the music from a pornographic play got set to the words of the mass and used as a mass setting. The secular examples are numerous. Look up "Puis qu'en oubli" - its a polyphonic courtly love song. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by dells_of_bittersweet

[dells_of_bittersweet]

 

Links to songs referenced - would have posted above but settings not allowing it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--DbgPXwLlM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snmwD6d9Xo4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hikl2dLRMCc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grz3Hxw9GWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjwjxxpvE0Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g2tm-OhPA0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fB7nORy5EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEXmmIji6fY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yi2MMtIimY

 

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by dells_of_bittersweet

[little2add]

What about Elvis?

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XGlelYprF2M

 

[bardegaulois]

26 minutes ago, dells_of_bittersweet said:

I think our Evangelical brothers and sisters have done a better job learning how to make a sacred sound using contemporary genres, so the St. Louis Jesuits wouldn't really be my first example of good contemporary sacred music. However, I will speak a word in their defense: due to the incompetence of the average parish music department, most people have probably never heard their music played to its full potential. Also, I find the comparison to Simon and Garfunkel interesting. Perphaps their most enduring song is "Sound of Silence" and I believe this song is intended to have a sacred sound to it. Its the cry of the secular man's heart to find the spiritual. You should listen to the original recordings of Sing to the Mountains and Be Not Afraid and you will find a much more sacred sound than you normally experience in a Catholic parish. 

But, I emphasize that our Evangelical brothers and sisters have found a better way. Matt Maher and Audrey Assad, who are Catholics working alongside Evangelicals, have produced some phenomenal works. I recommend looking at New Every Morning, I Shall Not Want, Restless, and Garden for beautiful sacred songs with theologically rich lyrics. And for an Evangelical composer, look at Facedown by Matt Redman.

So, Catholics should sound like Evangelicals? But I'm not an Evangelical, nor have I much patience for their often empty emotionalism. There are many songs, even some very popular ones, that are "cr[ies] of the secular man's heart to find the spiritual." But theme alone does not make Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" or George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" sacred music anymore than it makes bluegrass or gospel music with religious themes so. This is not to say that such music doesn't have its place, but the place for it, according to our traditions as well as a strict reading of even contemporary liturgical documents, is not Holy Mass.

To be completely up front about my horse in this race, I must profess that I hear the TLM almost exclusively. This is because the style of liturgical worship you advocate here is the only game in town in my area, with no "black and red" Novus Ordo parishes to be found. Perhaps well-meaning music directors thing that they'll attract a younger crowd into the Church by doing pop-based or Evangelical-style music, but indeed the opposite is happening. They believe they're being patronized by this and are being driven away either into a more traditional Catholicism or into secularity. As Kateri said, if our public worship does not offer us a reprieve from what we can get in the secular world -- in more respects than just music moreover, such as preaching or the ars celebrandi of the liturgy -- then why must wonder why we're dragging ourselves out of bed on Sunday to do it. The last time I went to an NO Mass, I think I was the only person under 60 there. Protestant churches face the same problem, and that is why they are dying. However, TLM parishes are thriving with young people, young families, and numerous vocations. It seems that the more solemn and otherworldly the public worship -- the more directed it is toward God and the less directed toward us -- the more effective a parish is and the deeper the root it plants in the souls of the faithful.

[Peace]

Any type of music that is offered to the true God by a person of sincere heart is "real Catholic music" as far as I am concerned.

Guitar at Mass is perfectly fine. The people who have legitimate authority to decide that issue have allowed it.  So if you want to attend a Mass that has guitar music you do not have to justify it to anybody - just like people who want to attend a Mass that has Gregorian Chant does not have to justify it to anybody.  Different people relate to music in different ways. If guitar helps you worship God attend a parish that has guitar. If Gregorian Chant helps you worship God then attend a parish that has Gregorian Chant. Simple as that.

Personally I have attended Mass at parishes that have Gregorian Chant type music, that have folkstyle guitar music, an African American parish that has gospel style music, and even a predominantly Mexican parish that has mariachi type music. Each music has something to help the people that attend those parishes. And they are all parishes who have people who love God and desire to worship him through music.

It's kind of a shame when folks start implying that their music is more authentically Catholic than other types of music. What should be something that the Church should celebrate, that our faith is expressed authentically in a variety of different contexts and cultures as Jesus intended, has become a source of division.

[Makarioi]

I played guitar at our 5PM Mass and sometimes at the 11:00AM Mass in the 1970's.  Fast forward to today, our Mass has guitar, drums, piano, organ, flute, trumpet and another brass.  It is done very tastefully and respectfully. (I draw the line with the tambourine, which can be quite annoying, more so than a guitar)  In the same Diocese, Mass is more traditional with organ and older hymns rather than 'songs' and I love that; memory from my childhood days at Mass.    The solemnity of it all vanishes when it becomes a hoopla rather than respectful music. 

[dells_of_bittersweet]

2 hours ago, bardegaulois said:

So, Catholics should sound like Evangelicals? But I'm not an Evangelical, nor have I much patience for their often empty emotionalism. There are many songs, even some very popular ones, that are "cr[ies] of the secular man's heart to find the spiritual." But theme alone does not make Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" or George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" sacred music anymore than it makes bluegrass or gospel music with religious themes so. This is not to say that such music doesn't have its place, but the place for it, according to our traditions as well as a strict reading of even contemporary liturgical documents, is not Holy Mass.

To be completely up front about my horse in this race, I must profess that I hear the TLM almost exclusively. This is because the style of liturgical worship you advocate here is the only game in town in my area, with no "black and red" Novus Ordo parishes to be found. Perhaps well-meaning music directors thing that they'll attract a younger crowd into the Church by doing pop-based or Evangelical-style music, but indeed the opposite is happening. They believe they're being patronized by this and are being driven away either into a more traditional Catholicism or into secularity. As Kateri said, if our public worship does not offer us a reprieve from what we can get in the secular world -- in more respects than just music moreover, such as preaching or the ars celebrandi of the liturgy -- then why must wonder why we're dragging ourselves out of bed on Sunday to do it. The last time I went to an NO Mass, I think I was the only person under 60 there. Protestant churches face the same problem, and that is why they are dying. However, TLM parishes are thriving with young people, young families, and numerous vocations. It seems that the more solemn and otherworldly the public worship -- the more directed it is toward God and the less directed toward us -- the more effective a parish is and the deeper the root it plants in the souls of the faithful.

Newsflash: Catholics have been sounding like Protestants since the reformation. Look at the index of any Catholic hymnal and you will find that a majority of the hymns, particularly those composed before Vatican II, are written by Protestants such as Isaac Watts and Charles Wesley. To give a particularly egregious example, "We Gather Together to Ask the Lord's Blessing" has a subtext of being thankful for the Protestant Dutch beating the Spanish Catholics in the Dutch war of independence ("The wicked oppressing now cease from distressing"). God can work through Protestant composers, and when they write goods songs or discover good ways of composing music, we can bring those works in. I think the church would be impoverished without How Great Thou Art, Holy Holy Holy, Joy to the World, How Can I Keep From Singing, and the many other beautiful hymns composed by Protestants. Vatican II asked us to harmonize sacred music with the musical traditions of the region. The Evangelicals have found something that works the parts of it that can be harmonized with the spirit of sacred music are worth emulating. 

I share your disapproval of Evangelical empty emotionalism, which is why a huge fraction of the songs they publish I refuse to program. Yet the incompetence of some composers should not rule out the gems that this genre has developed.

I'm not sure which documents you are reading that say that this music does not belong at Holy Mass. I refer again to Musicam Sacram paragraph 61: "Adapting sacred music for those regions which possess a musical tradition of their own, especially mission areas, will require a very specialized preparation by the experts. It will be a question in fact of how to harmonize the sense of the sacred with the spirit, traditions and characteristic expressions proper to each of these peoples. Those who work in this field should have a sufficient knowledge both of the liturgy and musical tradition of the Church, and of the language, popular songs and other characteristic expressions of the people for whose benefit they are working." It's a pretty bold statement to say the people working on harmonizing the music of the region to sacred usage should be familiar with its popular songs.

Saying the black and doing the red is hugely important to me. I am convinced that the style of worship I am advocating is allowed by the documents. Now, contemporary Christian music is often terribly played at Catholic Churches and turns into a pseudo-rock concert. I absolutely oppose this. The human voice is the primary instrument in Catholic worship and part of what attracts me to praise and worship music is its singability - in fact, many of them work really well acapella. Any time I am playing Lord I Need You by Matt Maher or Mighty to Save by Hillsong I drop out at the end and let the congregation sing it by themselves. Its always a moving experience. Good contemporary musicians know how to support rather than overpower the human voice - sadly, there are many bad ones. 

There is a distinction between contemporary music that young people have ownership of and bad music old people think is contemporary. I'm a 24 year old grad student and have led praise and worship music in both my undergrad Catholic center and my grad school Catholic center. I just got back from attending a holy hour where we play praise and worship and average about 80 students per week. At my undergrad I started such a weekly event from scratch and got about 30 students a week to come to adoration on a Friday night. When the music is authentic, and harmonizes the sacred to the musical idioms of the culture rather than simply reflecting the culture, it speaks to the heart of many young people. I've seen this music change lives. 

My undergrad Catholic Center was arguably the most successful in the United States and supported 2 daily masses, 2 daily hours of confession, perpetual adoration during business hours weekdays, and getting 120 new students to come on our Awakening retreat each semester. We additionally had a thriving Bible study program. When a Catholic Center is spiritually alive, it inspires people to go beyond just showing up on Sunday (or even to start showing up on Sunday). Contemporary music was a big part of our culture.

Your suggestion that young people avoid this music is inaccurate. Young people flee inauthenticity. Drums drowning out singers and pseudo-rock led by aging boomers with song selections from the 1960s-1980s will drive young people away. When contemporary music is authentically liturgical, students eat it up and traditionalism becomes more of a niche interest. 

I believe that traditional music is something that people have a right to have access to. I am not advocating that we exclusively play contemporary music. I am arguing that the documents allow for this and contemporary music can be an important part of some church communities. 

Finally, I object to your mischaracterization of contemporary Christian music as "pop-based." Being pop-based would mean being derivative of actual pop music, like Lady Gaga or Katy Perry. I do not think we should be copying such transient elements of the culture. However, the guitar is common to all folk music in the United States and is hence a permanent element of the culture - and thus not pop! It is, however, used in pop, since it is an essential element of the musical tradition of our country. The guitar, as the backbone of nearly all forms of music native to our country, is exactly the kind of cultural element that Musicam Sacram speaks of integrating into sacred music. Its been being used for gospel music since at least 1887 when Anthony Showalter and Elisha Hoffman wrote Leaning on the Everlasting Arms. The guitar can be used to create a sacred sound so we need to encourage people in the church to use it in a way that does. 

 

[dells_of_bittersweet]

3 hours ago, bardegaulois said:

There are many songs, even some very popular ones, that are "cr[ies] of the secular man's heart to find the spiritual." But theme alone does not make Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" or George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" sacred music anymore than it makes bluegrass or gospel music with religious themes so.'

To add one more thing: Jeff Buckley's rendition of "Hallelujah" and "The Sound of Silence" are not sacred liturgical music because their lyrics are not appropriate for Mass. They are, however, a useful measure of what sound has been inculturated in this country as sacred. Both composers were clearly trying to create something that sounded sacred despite their spiritual flaws. The problem is not that we have church music sounding like these songs but that many of the songs at church, either in execution or by poor composition, do not sound nearly this sacred. 

By what objective criteria are you painting entire genres as incapable of being harmonized with the sacred? I find your comment about Gospel music racially insensitive. I had the privilege of learning much of what I know about how to play for church from an African-American gospel singer. It's not your place to say what isn't sacred to a culture you haven't experienced. 

[bardegaulois]

19 minutes ago, dells_of_bittersweet said:

Newsflash: Catholics have been sounding like Protestants since the reformation. Look at the index of any Catholic hymnal and you will find that a majority of the hymns, particularly those composed before Vatican II, are written by Protestants such as Isaac Watts and Charles Wesley. To give a particularly egregious example, "We Gather Together to Ask the Lord's Blessing" has a subtext of being thankful for the Protestant Dutch beating the Spanish Catholics in the Dutch war of independence ("The wicked oppressing now cease from distressing"). God can work through Protestant composers, and when they write goods songs or discover good ways of composing music, we can bring those works in. I think the church would be impoverished without How Great Thou Art, Holy Holy Holy, Joy to the World, How Can I Keep From Singing, and the many other beautiful hymns composed by Protestants. Vatican II asked us to harmonize sacred music with the musical traditions of the region. The Evangelicals have found something that works the parts of it that can be harmonized with the spirit of sacred music are worth emulating. 

[...]

Finally, I object to your mischaracterization of contemporary Christian music as "pop-based." Being pop-based would mean being derivative of actual pop music, like Lady Gaga or Katy Perry. I do not think we should be copying such transient elements of the culture. However, the guitar is common to all folk music in the United States and is hence a permanent element of the culture - and thus not pop! It is, however, used in pop, since it is an essential element of the musical tradition of our country. The guitar, as the backbone of nearly all forms of music native to our country, is exactly the kind of cultural element that Musicam Sacram speaks of integrating into sacred music. Its been being used for gospel music since at least 1887 when Anthony Showalter and Elisha Hoffman wrote Leaning on the Everlasting Arms. The guitar can be used to create a sacred sound so we need to encourage people in the church to use it in a way that does. 

 

They have? What did the Council of Trent say about hymns? Oh, that's right; nothing. Mass has its propers. The Office has hymns, but they're generally Latin hymns. Hymnody, especially congregational hymnody, hasn't historically been as big a deal in the Catholic world as it has in the Protestant world. Certain Protestant hymns can be very beautiful and lyrical, and can even seem not out of place in a Mass. But we mistake ourselves if we think they were written for Mass or Mass was adapted for them.

As regards folk music, yes, there's a lot of folk music throughout many countries and cultures featuring plucked strings. But I'd rather my folk music be folk music (thus continuing that venerable old tradition) and my sacred music be sacred music (thus continuing that venerable old tradition). A four-part choir singing "Danny Boy" with organ accompaniment would be as odd to me as someone singing Salve Regina accompanied by guitar, mandolin, and fiddle.

15 minutes ago, dells_of_bittersweet said:

To add one more thing: Jeff Buckley's rendition of "Hallelujah" and "The Sound of Silence" are not sacred liturgical music because their lyrics are not appropriate for Mass. They are, however, a useful measure of what sound has been inculturated in this country as sacred. Both composers were clearly trying to create something that sounded sacred despite their spiritual flaws. The problem is not that we have church music sounding like these songs but that many of the songs at church, either in execution or by poor composition, do not sound nearly this sacred. 

By what objective criteria are you painting entire genres as incapable of being harmonized with the sacred? I find your comment about Gospel music racially insensitive. I had the privilege of learning much of what I know about how to play for church from an African-American gospel singer. It's not your place to say what isn't sacred to a culture you haven't experienced. 

No, they're not sacred. They're lovely songs, but they're no more sacred than Shakespeare's sonnets or Chopin's nocturnes are. To say something is beautiful or moving does not indicate that it is somehow sacred. If it did, then we may as well base our Church around human creativity rather than the solemn worship of God. Some have tried this; they have miserably failed.

And now I see you're making an accusation of racism when it has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand, which definitely marks you out as a 24-year-old grad student. Somehow you didn't find my comment about bluegrass as insensitive toward Appalachian folk, interestingly. I've found that such accusations are generally made only when someone can't come up with any other cogent arguments. I'd advise you go back to your safe space, where you can play all the guitars you want. I'm going to bow out; if you use tactics like this, you're no longer worth talking to.

[dells_of_bittersweet]

6 minutes ago, bardegaulois said:

And now I see you're making an accusation of racism when it has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand, which definitely marks you out as a 24-year-old grad student. Somehow you didn't find my comment about bluegrass as insensitive toward Appalachian folk, interestingly. I've found that such accusations are generally made only when someone can't come up with any other cogent arguments. I'd advise you go back to your safe space, where you can play all the guitars you want. I'm going to bow out; if you use tactics like this, you're no longer worth talking to.

I'll respond to the rest of this later, but its a legitimate argument when the genre is incultured as sacred within that group. I'll add that the rest of your comments are a gross mischaracterization of my worldview and that I lean politically conservative. 

I didn't make the comment about Appalacian folk because it is less inculturated as sacred within that group. I will however, suggest that there are some white Gospel songs that have clear Appalacian folk influences, particularly Leaning on the Everlasting Arms, which is my favorite old hymn. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by dells_of_bittersweet

[dells_of_bittersweet]

11 minutes ago, bardegaulois said:

They have? What did the Council of Trent say about hymns? Oh, that's right; nothing. Mass has its propers. The Office has hymns, but they're generally Latin hymns. Hymnody, especially congregational hymnody, hasn't historically been as big a deal in the Catholic world as it has in the Protestant world. Certain Protestant hymns can be very beautiful and lyrical, and can even seem not out of place in a Mass. But we mistake ourselves if we think they were written for Mass or Mass was adapted for them.

As regards folk music, yes, there's a lot of folk music throughout many countries and cultures featuring plucked strings. But I'd rather my folk music be folk music (thus continuing that venerable old tradition) and my sacred music be sacred music (thus continuing that venerable old tradition). A four-part choir singing "Danny Boy" with organ accompaniment would be as odd to me as someone singing Salve Regina accompanied by guitar, mandolin, and fiddle.

No, they're not sacred. They're lovely songs, but they're no more sacred than Shakespeare's sonnets or Chopin's nocturnes are. To say something is beautiful or moving does not indicate that it is somehow sacred. If it did, then we may as well base our Church around human creativity rather than the solemn worship of God. Some have tried this; they have miserably failed.

You appear to be unfamiliar with Musicam Sacram, which states the following: "32. The custom legitimately in use in certain places and widely confirmed by indults, of substituting other songs for the songs given in the Graduale for the Entrance, Offertory and Communion, can be retained according to the judgment of the competent territorial authority, as long as songs of this sort are in keeping with the parts of the Mass, with the feast or with the liturgical season. It is for the same territorial authority to approve the texts of these songs."

By what objective criteria are they not sacred? You have given no objective standard to distinguish between sacred and non-sacred other than your own feelings. Musicam Sacram is clear that such compositions can be harmonized with the sacred. Do you dissent from paragraph 61?

The composition of sacred music IS human creativity! God gave us our creativity to write music. Without human creativity we would have no Gregorian Chant. 

[Peace]

15 minutes ago, dells_of_bittersweet said:

You appear to be unfamiliar with Musicam Sacram, which states the following: "32. The custom legitimately in use in certain places and widely confirmed by indults, of substituting other songs for the songs given in the Graduale for the Entrance, Offertory and Communion, can be retained according to the judgment of the competent territorial authority, as long as songs of this sort are in keeping with the parts of the Mass, with the feast or with the liturgical season. It is for the same territorial authority to approve the texts of these songs."

By what objective criteria are they not sacred? You have given no objective standard to distinguish between sacred and non-sacred other than your own feelings. Musicam Sacram is clear that such compositions can be harmonized with the sacred. Do you dissent from paragraph 61?

The composition of sacred music IS human creativity! God gave us our creativity to write music. Without human creativity we would have no Gregorian Chant. 

You are really barking up the wrong tree here. Look, here at Phatmass if you listen to Gregorian Chant you are a true Catholic and will receive your reward in Heaven. If you happen to worship with Gospel music, not so much.

Now that may not sound very fair to you, but remember, these are God's rules, not mine.

[bardegaulois]

28 minutes ago, dells_of_bittersweet said:

You appear to be unfamiliar with Musicam Sacram, which states the following: "32. The custom legitimately in use in certain places and widely confirmed by indults, of substituting other songs for the songs given in the Graduale for the Entrance, Offertory and Communion, can be retained according to the judgment of the competent territorial authority, as long as songs of this sort are in keeping with the parts of the Mass, with the feast or with the liturgical season. It is for the same territorial authority to approve the texts of these songs."

I've read it. I've also read Sancrosanctam Consilium, and I have a working familiarity with centuries of Catholic liturgical tradition. Just because an option is given doesn't mean it's prudent to exercise it. We've seen enough innovation and experimentation over the past 50 years, and the results have left much to be desired. Now it's time to go back to the tried, tested, and true. Enough of this aggiornamento; let's have more ressourcement.