Cardinal Schonborn Questions European Immigration Policy

[PhuturePriest]

Despite the dubious title and bland topic Breitbart (inevitably) chose to focus on, this is a rather interesting evolution for Cardinal Schonborn to take, voicing concern over the "Islamisation of Europe" and Muslims' ultimate plan of converting Christian Europe to Islam: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/01/03/next-pope-says-trump-could-be-like-best-president-reagan/

He also decries the anti-religious freedom laws in many Muslim-dominant countries, and ultimately lays the blame of Islamic conversion on us, essentially stating we have lost our Christian roots to secularism and consumerism.

This is in comparison to his previous comments nearly one year ago, comparing nations refusing immigrants as a new "iron curtain": https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=27216

Given that he lives around an area of the world in which there have been numerous issues concerning terrorist attacks and mass sexual assault on women and children, it seems his renewed stance is one of experience and not a mere change of whim.

Your thoughts on this? I'm not against accepting refugees of any nationality or religion, but I do think Europe's (in particular Germany's) policies concerning open immigration without any pretense of a vetting process is imprudent to the point of immorality, despite the undoubtedly good intentions behind it.

Edited January 4, 2017 by PhuturePriest

[Anomaly]

This is what happens when public figures speak in oversimplification and/or are interpreted or quoted in over simplified terms.  

There is always a danger in indiscriminate immigration as well as unbridled xenophobia.  I don't really think that he has changed as much as his full thoughts and opinion is being parsed for selfish purposes instead of looking at both interviews as being complimentary, not contradictory. 

[PhuturePriest]

21 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

This is what happens when public figures speak in oversimplification and/or are interpreted or quoted in over simplified terms.  

There is always a danger in indiscriminate immigration as well as unbridled xenophobia.  I don't really think that he has changed as much as his full thoughts and opinion is being parsed for selfish purposes instead of looking at both interviews as being complimentary, not contradictory. 

This hits the truth pretty well, I think. Too often I forget to think of things as being possibly complementary rather than contradictory, and what you say makes sense. The risk of xenophobia is seemingly at an all-time high, and at the same time it seems some have lost all common sense in the name of inclusion. The German court not convicting that man who raped a boy because he "didn't know the boy was telling him to stop" is a perfect example.

[Nihil Obstat]

Interesting position for him to take.

[NadaTeTurbe]

Lebanon (a christian country) have 1 million of refugees for 4 millions of inhabitants, and us European are complaining for this... To read this coming from an Austrian is very funny when you know everything that Austria & other eastern countries did to not welcome any refugee. So reading a Austrian complaining about the refugee crisis is a little like when Americans (1% of muslims population) complain about France "islamophobia" (7,5% of muslims population). When you're not concerned by a subject, you don't giv moral lesson.
The real refugee crisis is in Jordania, Lebanon and Turkey. Never forget. The christians who are the most in danger because of the Syrian crisis are the Lebanese one. 
I volunteer with Syrian refugee once a month. Most of them comes from the high middle class and are nothing but willing to integrate. the NGO with whom I work have problems with Algerians, mostly (wich is the case since the 60's)

Edited January 4, 2017 by NadaTeTurbe

[Anomaly]

Anti-immigration Is not just a fear of others because they're different. The fear is because their perception of these people is they are not like themselves, they don't want to adapt to the local culture and be like them, they want to change the local culture, they don't like lie the local culture, and they believe many of the immigrants actively hate the locals for who they are culturally.   Put in religion everywhere I said culture, because culture and religion is very intertwined. 

Mada, you yourself have complained bitterly about other immigrants and ex-pats who don't learn the local language.   

The US deals with a greater relative magnitude of immigrants who don't speak the language every year than Europe does.  Illegal immigration is a problem culturally and economically.  It is a struggle for all local citizens.  By the same token, the US has incorporated many tens of millions of immigrants.  

It is a complex problem where many answers or actions create new and difficult problems. Fear is not always hatred.  Different is not always safe. Commonality is not always easy to find if both sides aren't willing to patiently look for it, and even then, it may not exist. 

[Anomaly]

x

Edited January 4, 2017 by Anomaly

[Guest]

Sad but true.

[McM RSCJ]

No, Josh, this is absolutely not true.  And while I doubt you mean it, your comment participates in and extends demonization of the (Muslim) Other and verges on hate speech.  Violent Islamists hide among all of us (as do KKK and "Christian" violent extremists like Dylan Roof), but that does not mean any one of us supports them.  And it certainly does not mean Moderate Muslims support them.  The Catholic Church in its leaders is not with you on this.  Rather our Catholic Leaders understand our Muslims sisters and brothers worship the One God as we do.  Read every Church magisterial teaching on interfaith respect and dialogue.

Josh, I am sorry you apparently (?) do not live and work with Muslims who abhor those who have hijacked their Faith and who, themselves, suffer the consequences in discrimination.  If you did, I do not think you could ever make such a post. 

But, in any case, you are posting on a so-called Catholic Website. I think it is grievously wrong to find such posts here unchallenged by "authority" on whoever sponsors the website.  I hope the folks who set up and moderate this website, while largely concealing their actual identities and contact information, will step up and let you and all of us know that such postings do not belong here, even on a spot that invites everyone to post whatever, without any fear. . . . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

“Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian faith is lost, like your false prophet Muhammad.”

-St. Peter Mavimenus (d. 8th century), martyr from Gaza. Response reported in the Martyriologum Romanum when he was asked to convert to Islam by a group of Muslims.

“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist…. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.”

-St. John Damascene (d. 749), Syrian Arab Catholic monk and scholar. Quoted from his book On Heresies under the section On the Heresy of the Ishmaelites (in The Fathers of the Church. Vol. 37. Translated by the Catholic University of America. CUA Press. 1958. Pages 153-160.)

“We profess Christ to be truly God and your prophet to be a precursor of the Antichrist and other profane doctrine.”

-Sts. Habenitus, Jeremiah, Peter, Sabinian, Walabonsus, and Wistremundus (d. 851), martyrs of Cordoba, Spain. Reported in the Memoriale Sanctorum in response to Spanish Umayyad Caliph ‘Abd Ar-Rahman II’s ministers that they convert to Islam on pain of death.

“Any cult which denies the divinity of Christ, does not profess the existence of the Holy Trinity, refutes baptism, defames Christians, and derogates the priesthood, we consider to be damned.”

-Sts. Aurelius, Felix, George, Liliosa, and Natalia (d. 852), martyrs of Cordoba, Spain. Reported in the Memoriale Sanctorum in response to Spanish Umayyad Caliph ‘Abd Ar-Rahman II’s ministers that they convert to Islam on pain of death.

“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, the point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants.”

-St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1274), Theologian and Doctor of the Church. Quoted from his De Rationibus Fidei Contra Saracenos, Graecos, et Armenos and translated from Fr. Damian Fehlner’s Aquinas on Reasons for the Faith: Against the Muslims, Greeks, and Armenians (Franciscans of the Immaculate. 2002.).

“As we have seen, Muhammed had neither supernatural miracles nor natural motives of reason to persuade those of his sect. As he lacked in everything, he took to bestial and barbaric means, which is the force of arms. Thus he introduced and promulgated his message with robberies, murders, and bloodshedding, destroying those who did not want to receive it, and with the same means his ministers conserve this today, until God placates his anger and destroys this pestilence from the earth.

[…]

(Muhammad) can also be figured for the dragon in the same Apocalypse which says that the dragon swept up a third of the stars and hurled down a third to earth. Although this line is more appropriately understood concerning the Antichrist, Mohammed was his precursor – the prophet of Satan, father of the sons of haughtiness.

[…]

Even if all the things contained in his law were fables in philosophy and errors in theology, even for those who do not possess the light of reason, the very manners (Islam) teaches are from a school of vicious bestialities. (Muhammad) did not prove his new sect with any motive, having neither supernatural miracles nor natural reasons, but solely the force of arms, violence, fictions, lies, and carnal license. It remains an impious, blasphemous, vicious cult, an innovention of the devil, and the direct way into the fires of hell. It does not even merit the name of being called a religion.”

-St. Juan de Ribera (d.1611), Archbishop of Valencia, missionary to Spanish Muslims, and organizer of the Muslim expulsions of 1609 from Spain. Quoted in several locations from his 1599 Catechismo para la Instruccion de los Nuevos Convertidos de los Moros (my translation).

“The Mahometan paradise, however, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there.”

St. Alfonsus Liguori (d. 1787). Quoted from his book, The History of Heresies and their Refutation

[Nihil Obstat]

[PhuturePriest]

4 hours ago, McM RSCJ said:

No, Josh, this is absolutely not true.  And while I doubt you mean it, your comment participates in and extends demonization of the (Muslim) Other and verges on hate speech.  Violent Islamists hide among all of us (as do KKK and "Christian" violent extremists like Dylan Roof), but that does not mean any one of us supports them.  And it certainly does not mean Moderate Muslims support them.  The Catholic Church in its leaders is not with you on this.  Rather our Catholic Leaders understand our Muslims sisters and brothers worship the One God as we do.  Read every Church magisterial teaching on interfaith respect and dialogue.

Josh, I am sorry you apparently (?) do not live and work with Muslims who abhor those who have hijacked their Faith and who, themselves, suffer the consequences in discrimination.  If you did, I do not think you could ever make such a post. 

But, in any case, you are posting on a so-called Catholic Website. I think it is grievously wrong to find such posts here unchallenged by "authority" on whoever sponsors the website.  I hope the folks who set up and moderate this website, while largely concealing their actual identities and contact information, will step up and let you and all of us know that such postings do not belong here, even on a spot that invites everyone to post whatever, without any fear. . . . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With all due respect, I don't think it's as simple as people who have "hijacked" the Islamic faith. Coming as a person with moderate views on this issue and with a liking and fascination for Middle Eastern culture and history, Islamic terrorists are, unfortunately, acting in accordance with a very long tradition in Islam which finds its example in the very beginnings of it. In fact, most Muslim-majority countries are to this day incredibly anti-Christian. Even in moderate places like Turkey, Christians are treated like second-class citizens, and in Mecca you can be stoned to death simply for wearing a cross, being suspected of simply having SSA (not acting on it), and for converting to any other religion. In fact, there are 12 Muslim-dominant countries in which this happens.

Are most Muslims in America moderate? Yes. But this does not negate that in many Muslim-majority countries non-Muslims are either killed or treated horribly, and it's far too simplistic to say these people (who live in their religion's founding area and are acting in accordance with their history) have "hijacked" their religion. They have not evolved their beliefs to be as civil as moderate Muslims (and, it must be said, as we have evolved our own behavior in this regard), but it cannot be said they are hijacking anything.

I am of course empathetic to the unfortunate discrimination Muslims in our country and in other countries receive, and I believe it is wrong to view any Muslim as suspect and treat them badly. I believe we should treat all people with respect and love, which is why I also advocate for allowing Muslim refugees in and I commend our Catholic leaders for doing so even against express orders not to. Such a case happened in Ohio, I believe. The attempt to ban refugees because of some horribly dehumanizing nut analogy, for instance, is simply repugnant. But having compassion and charity does not mean we must therefore conclude Islamic terrorists are hijacking their religion.

Edited January 5, 2017 by PhuturePriest

[Egeria]

5 hours ago, McM RSCJ said:

No, Josh, this is absolutely not true.  And while I doubt you mean it, your comment participates in and extends demonization of the (Muslim) Other and verges on hate speech.  Violent Islamists hide among all of us (as do KKK and "Christian" violent extremists like Dylan Roof), but that does not mean any one of us supports them.  And it certainly does not mean Moderate Muslims support them.  The Catholic Church in its leaders is not with you on this.  Rather our Catholic Leaders understand our Muslims sisters and brothers worship the One God as we do.  Read every Church magisterial teaching on interfaith respect and dialogue.

Josh, I am sorry you apparently (?) do not live and work with Muslims who abhor those who have hijacked their Faith and who, themselves, suffer the consequences in discrimination.  If you did, I do not think you could ever make such a post. 

But, in any case, you are posting on a so-called Catholic Website. I think it is grievously wrong to find such posts here unchallenged by "authority" on whoever sponsors the website.  I hope the folks who set up and moderate this website, while largely concealing their actual identities and contact information, will step up and let you and all of us know that such postings do not belong here, even on a spot that invites everyone to post whatever, without any fear. . . . 

This. 1000 times this. I can only assume that Josh doesn't know any Muslims and is totally brainwashed by whatever American media he follows.

[Guest]

Just now, Egeria said:

This. 1000 times this. I can only assume that Josh doesn't know any Muslims and is totally brainwashed by whatever American media he follows.

I live by a bunch of Muslims. I have no problem with individual Muslims. I do have a problem with Islam. The day I have to as a Catholic accept Islam as a true religion equal to Catholicism will be the day I no longer identify as a Catholic. At least not the brand of Catholicism that puts Islam in the same category of truth as the Catholic Church. Jesus promised the gates of hell wouldn't prevail so I'm confident this will never happen. Although some false prophets might try their hardest at making it a reality. There's at least one in this thread.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Guest

[Amppax]

15 hours ago, Josh said:

“Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian faith is lost, like your false prophet Muhammad.”

-St. Peter Mavimenus (d. 8th century), martyr from Gaza. Response reported in the Martyriologum Romanum when he was asked to convert to Islam by a group of Muslims.

“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist…. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.”

-St. John Damascene (d. 749), Syrian Arab Catholic monk and scholar. Quoted from his book On Heresies under the section On the Heresy of the Ishmaelites (in The Fathers of the Church. Vol. 37. Translated by the Catholic University of America. CUA Press. 1958. Pages 153-160.)

“We profess Christ to be truly God and your prophet to be a precursor of the Antichrist and other profane doctrine.”

-Sts. Habenitus, Jeremiah, Peter, Sabinian, Walabonsus, and Wistremundus (d. 851), martyrs of Cordoba, Spain. Reported in the Memoriale Sanctorum in response to Spanish Umayyad Caliph ‘Abd Ar-Rahman II’s ministers that they convert to Islam on pain of death.

“Any cult which denies the divinity of Christ, does not profess the existence of the Holy Trinity, refutes baptism, defames Christians, and derogates the priesthood, we consider to be damned.”

-Sts. Aurelius, Felix, George, Liliosa, and Natalia (d. 852), martyrs of Cordoba, Spain. Reported in the Memoriale Sanctorum in response to Spanish Umayyad Caliph ‘Abd Ar-Rahman II’s ministers that they convert to Islam on pain of death.

“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, the point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants.”

-St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1274), Theologian and Doctor of the Church. Quoted from his De Rationibus Fidei Contra Saracenos, Graecos, et Armenos and translated from Fr. Damian Fehlner’s Aquinas on Reasons for the Faith: Against the Muslims, Greeks, and Armenians (Franciscans of the Immaculate. 2002.).

“As we have seen, Muhammed had neither supernatural miracles nor natural motives of reason to persuade those of his sect. As he lacked in everything, he took to bestial and barbaric means, which is the force of arms. Thus he introduced and promulgated his message with robberies, murders, and bloodshedding, destroying those who did not want to receive it, and with the same means his ministers conserve this today, until God placates his anger and destroys this pestilence from the earth.

[…]

(Muhammad) can also be figured for the dragon in the same Apocalypse which says that the dragon swept up a third of the stars and hurled down a third to earth. Although this line is more appropriately understood concerning the Antichrist, Mohammed was his precursor – the prophet of Satan, father of the sons of haughtiness.

[…]

Even if all the things contained in his law were fables in philosophy and errors in theology, even for those who do not possess the light of reason, the very manners (Islam) teaches are from a school of vicious bestialities. (Muhammad) did not prove his new sect with any motive, having neither supernatural miracles nor natural reasons, but solely the force of arms, violence, fictions, lies, and carnal license. It remains an impious, blasphemous, vicious cult, an innovention of the devil, and the direct way into the fires of hell. It does not even merit the name of being called a religion.”

-St. Juan de Ribera (d.1611), Archbishop of Valencia, missionary to Spanish Muslims, and organizer of the Muslim expulsions of 1609 from Spain. Quoted in several locations from his 1599 Catechismo para la Instruccion de los Nuevos Convertidos de los Moros (my translation).

“The Mahometan paradise, however, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there.”

St. Alfonsus Liguori (d. 1787). Quoted from his book, The History of Heresies and their Refutation

 

Josh, where did you get these from?