Gabriela Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 As a means of establishing which is more important, love or doctrinal correctness, please play along: Person 1 is perfectly filled with love for all humanity and all creation, but holds some un-Catholic beliefs about God, salvation, the Church, etc. Person 2 believes with the Church to perfection, but cannot be said to be filled with love and is, in fact, somewhat bitter and hateful. Which person is more likely a saint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountrySteve21 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Person 1 The reason is if he is filled with perfect love, that means he is trying to seek the genuine good, and whatever errors he believes in, he does not perceive them to be wrong or else he would not hold to them. Since true love, which comes from God, does not tolerate any falsehood. Person two is obviously far from God, for the more we grow closer to God, the more virtue (especially love) we develop. Quote 1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues[b] but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 [c]Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, [love] is not pompous, it is not inflated, 5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, 6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 [d]Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. 9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. 12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. 13 [e]So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1st Corinthians 13 1- 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) Just now, Gabriela said: Person 1 is perfectly filled with love for all humanity and all creation, To be fair this person is one in a million. Or billion. While we are all to strive for perfection it's pretty difficult to attain in this fallen world ruled by Satan and all his angels and demons. Edited December 31, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) Just now, Gabriela said: As a means of establishing which is more important, love or doctrinal correctness, please play along: Person 1 is perfectly filled with love for all humanity and all creation, but holds some un-Catholic beliefs about God, salvation, the Church, etc. Person 2 believes with the Church to perfection, but cannot be said to be filled with love and is, in fact, somewhat bitter and hateful. Which person is more likely a saint? In real life the closest person to #1 is probably a majority of the time a female who is very kind and outgoing. She supports gay marriage. Believes in God but not big on religion or the idea of "Sunday Obligation" when it comes to going to Church or being sent to hell if you don't comply. She more than likely doesn't even believe in the existence of hell. Or doesn't give it a lot of thought. In her mind it's not compatible with a loving God. Especially for sending people there for eternity because of sexual sins or what can be seen by some as trivial issues. Now shes defitenly the Saint over a hateful Catholic who has everything right when it comes to doctrine and following the rules of the Church. But say person #2 isn't technically hateful but is just a huge a@@^*## a lot of the time. And is the first to acknowledge it about themselves. Or perhaps not even acknowledge it or be aware of it. Well then in my opinion the question of who the Saint becomes alot tougher. I guess it boils down to how "perfectly filled with love for all humanity and all creation" person #1 really is. I think it has to be really close to perfection or #2 becomes the Saint. If you had to pick between the two. Edited December 31, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Well if we can visualize the question as glasses with equal amounts of unsaintly qualities (That doesn't seem clear from the way the question was posed.) 1) rejection of and/or beliefs counter to the Catholic Faith and 2) being bitter and hateful. I agree with Nihil, neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charbel Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I'd say they both have the same chance of repentance, just like every other person in sin. Person 1 couldn't be a saint because they are in error with the faith, and Person 2 couldn't either because they have a lack of love. Each person would likely have to spend some time in Purgatory before going to Heaven. Does going to Heaven make one a saint? I thought saints have to have led a holy life for love of God. If both of these persons were in sin because of different reasons and didn't repent before death, I don't see how either one could be a saint by the Church's standards. Am I right on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) Everyone who ends up in Heaven with a Glorified Ressurected Body becomes a Saint. If you don't become a Saint you spend eternity in hell. Both could go to Purgatory then become Saints when they get out. Edited December 31, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicanHeart Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I thought this was a slightly different game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Ultimately, the more liberally we intend to interpret the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, the more danger we subject ourselves to with regards to heresy and Christ's Great Commission. I am no Feeneyite, but nor am I willing to risk trivializing the most necessary teachings of our holy mother the Church. None will be saved in their heresy. Occasionally, perhaps, in spite of it and by rejecting it by an extraordinary grace of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I think it might depend on what you mean by "saint". Canonized probably neither would meet Rome's criteria and who can know who will be the uncanonised saint in Heaven and who not, although #1 has the better chance I would think. #2 depends on motivation etc. etc. - as for that, so does #1. Who knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack4 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3027.htm#article8 8 hours ago, Gabriela said: As a means of establishing which is more important, love or doctrinal correctness, please play along: Person 1 is perfectly filled with love for all humanity and all creation, but holds some un-Catholic beliefs about God, salvation, the Church, etc. Person 2 believes with the Church to perfection, but cannot be said to be filled with love and is, in fact, somewhat bitter and hateful. Which person is more likely a saint? Person 1 is "perfectly filled with love". Assuming he lives in a society like ours, what contact did he have with the Church? What were the results of his onversations about faith? What was Person 2's reaction to what he hears in homilies, spiritual reading, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountrySteve21 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 17 hours ago, DominicanHeart said: I thought this was a slightly different game. .That could be a fun thread to start in the lame board. Guess who the saint is: born in Italy in the year 1226, started a reform movement and is best known for his love of the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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