Pope Says He Will Enter History As The One Who Split The Catholic Church

[Guest]

[Nihil Obstat]

Mr. Arroyo has posted some excellent stuff recently. He has been very impressive.

[Guest]

 

 

Edited December 25, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

[Nihil Obstat]

Josh, I often have trouble figuring out if you are making fun of me or agreeing with me. It keeps me on my toes.   

[hotpink]

Ok, many of you are going to lambaste me for saying this, but would it really be bad to split off *some* of those who say they are Catholic but aren't faithful in the least?  I go to Mass every week.  I often go to the same Mass, at the same parish.  This Parish has 4 weekend Masses.  They range from about 1/3 full to about 2/3 full depending on the weekend.  Once during an awful pacific northwest storm, I was one of 6 people at Mass.  (Yet the pubs were full) The Church always has room-lots of room.  Then they double the Masses for Christmas and open up the parish center with a video screen for two.

The Masses are PACKED.  It's standing room only, kids on parents laps, and just eyeball to eyeball.  There's easily ten times the people at each of those that are typically at the biggest Mass each week.  I thought it was just my parish, but I realize its all over.  It's something called CAPE Catholics?    But the premise is that they only attend on Christmas, Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday and Easter.  

At the youth Mass the priest tells everyone, "We love that you participate, but unless you're a Catholic in weekly Communion, please refrain.  If you are in need of Confession, please remain after Mass and I'd be happy to reserve Communion you can then receive."

But at these Masses?

Nothing.

Deafening silence under the guise of The First Noel.

The same silence that I got when I asked the Bishop why in the heck don't they protect Jesus from sacrilege?  I'm not one to judge.  Maybe all of those hundreds of people are far travelers or dispensed elderly, or have little kids.  It *could* happen.  But why then scold mere teenagers?  Why doesn't anyone seem to care?  Is it about money?  Is that the only thing that people care about?

Pope Frances has been a Pope of Mercy, but also a Pope of Justice.  He's told people there's forgiveness but he's also told them they must follow the rules (the last of this which is ignored by the media).

So I'd like to know more context.  Is he going to be the one who tells people that they MUST follow the rules to be Catholic?  I'd hope so.  

[Maggyie]

The thing is that harping on the rules will just alienate these people who are ignorant about the value of the Eucharist. Excommunication and withholding Sacraments works well when the faithful are catechized to value what they are missing. In the current environment people would just say "mean!" and not go to church period. 

[Norseman82]

On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 7:09 AM, Josh said:

No a Catholic posted it on Facebook.

There's an old rule of journalism:  if your mother tells you she loves you, check it out and verify it.

[Jack4]

On Monday, December 26, 2016 at 7:04 AM, hotpink said:

Pope Francis has been... a Pope of Justice.  

It'd show better if he responded to "an act of justice and charity".

 

9 hours ago, Maggyie said:

The thing is that harping on the rules will just alienate these people who are ignorant about the value of the Eucharist.

Is there any way in which those who are ignorant about the value of the Eucharist can be further alienated? 

[Guest]

  Could a Catholic in some kind of irregular situation be able to receive Holy Communion or not -  certain personal circumstances having been wisely discerned?  St Paul states: "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. ¹² A person should examine himself, ¹³ and so eat the bread and drink the cup.For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment ¹⁴ on himself."

I think "unworthily" is something The Church defines and as a discipline and disciplines can change?  I think that refusal to those in manifest irregular situations right across the board has been a discipline of The Church?  This theoretically could change as an objective consideration of Church discipline?

It is also an issue of moral theology?  Can a person wisely discerned to be in a state of Grace justly be denied The Blessed Eucharist because of the exterior situation alone?

I also think that Pope Francis has asked for dialogue and has left decisions up to individual bishops and their conferences for their own related diocese.  Insofar as my own Archbishop and related conference is concerned to date, to my knowledge, there is no change to what existed prior to Laetitia Amoris.  I will obey that, while Faith seeks to understand and has questions.

[dUSt]

I think when a hard rule is put into place like "if A is true, then B is true" when it comes to defining a person's state of grace--it's pretty weird--because it seems to deny a person's ability to form a conscience.

Example:

A: I put a Snickers bar into my shopping bag and don't pay for it.
B: I should not receive communion.

But, what actually happened is that I was using a self-check out machine, and thought it scanned, and I didn't realize until I got home that it did not charge me for the Snickers bar.

So, if there is a hard rule in place based purely on actual actions, I should not receive communion--even though my formed conscience is clear.

[CatherineM]

We're all unworthy actually. Would you deny a medicine to someone who was really sick because it might not work?  People make mistakes in life. Some aren't fixable in a way that we can bear to live with. Doesn't mean you can't try to live the remainder of your life as holy as possible. 

The guys who were put ashore at Utah beach during the Normandy invasion ended up on the wrong beach. That meant the coastal installations hadn't been bombed. It also meant their reserves and supplies might go to the right beach. Their commander General Teddy Roosevelt Jr. said we aren't where we're supposed to be or want to be, but we're going to start the war from here. That's the story of my life. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Dust: But Canon 915 is not strictly concerned with personal sin as such.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Nihil Obstat

[franciscanheart]

I would like to think we've all caught on by now to dUSt's often very basic examples which illustrate a much bigger point. What then of Canon 916?

[Nihil Obstat]

48 minutes ago, franciscanheart said:

I would like to think we've all caught on by now to dUSt's often very basic examples which illustrate a much bigger point. What then of Canon 916?

Goes hand in hand with 915. But the issue of the divorced and remarried cannot be understood outside of the context of canon 915. 

916 is far simpler and does not really need further discussion.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Nihil Obstat