I Am A Die-hard Republican Because...

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 26 2004, 07:48 PM'] Pity it can't be part of Ireland. [/quote]
the UK and the Republic are within one country, the European Union.

the EU has: A bicameral parliament, a government, a justice system, a court, a single currency, a constitution (being drawn up as we speak). It can force laws on the countries within it, it will have it's own army soon....

[Aloysius]

that actually scares me. especially as it seems to be ignoring the Christian heritage of Europe, it looks like another big godless monster controlling a big section of Europe again.

if it turns it's back on God it is destined to fall.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 26 2004, 11:39 PM'] that actually scares me. especially as it seems to be ignoring the Christian heritage of Europe, it looks like another big godless monster controlling a big section of Europe again.

if it turns it's back on God it is destined to fall. [/quote]
Probably. Frankly, I'm amazed that Poland, Spain, Ireland allowed God to be written out of the constitution. Ireland above all

I envisage a different Union. Instead of 25 countries, it's 4. England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. How cool would that be?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Jun 26 2004, 08:38 AM'] Yes the 1994 Catechism. Try and find it in the others.
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[b]NOTE:[/b]  Bolded Parts amplify key words.

[b]Saint Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (died A.D. 107):[/b]

"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also [b]with the Bishop[/b].  And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, [b]shall belong to God[/b], that [b]they may live according to Jesus Christ[/b].  Do not err, my brethren.  If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  [b]If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ[/b]. [b](Epistle to the Philadelphians)[/b]

[b]Saint Pionius (died A.D. 250):[/b]

"I am a Christian and belong to the [b]Catholic Church[/b].  Would to God I could persuade all of you to [b]become Christians[/b], for it will be the worse for you to burn eternally after death."

[b]Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258):[/b]

"But if any one considers these things carefully, he will need no long discourse or arguments.  The proof is simple and convincing, being summed up in a matter of fact.  The Lord says to Peter, "I say to thee, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.  It will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven.  And what thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven."  And He says to him again after the resurrection, "Feed my sheep."  It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. [...]  [b]If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the [u]faith[/u]?[/b]  If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?" [b](On the Unity of the Catholic Church)[/b]

"Can the power of baptism be greater or of more avail than confession, than suffering, when one confesses Christ before men and is baptized in his own blood?  And yet even this baptism does not benefit a heretic, although he has confessed Christ, and been put to death outside the Church, unless the patrons and advocates of heretics declare that the heretics who are slain in a false confession of Christ are martyrs, and assign to them the glory and the crown of martyrdom contrary to the testimony of the apostle, who says that it will profit them nothing although they were burnt and slain. [..]  [b]Not even the baptism of a public confession and blood can profit a heretic, because [u]there is no salvation outside the Church[/u][/b]." [b](Epistle LXXII)[/b]

[b]Lactantius (died A.D. 310):[/b]

"[b]It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship[/b].  This is the [b]fountain of truth[/b], this is the [b]abode of the Faith[/b], [b]this is the temple of God[/b]; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, [b]he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation[/b].  No one ought to flatter himself with persevering strife.  For the contest is respecting life and salvation, which, unless it is carefully and diligently kept in view, will be lost and extinguished." [b](The Divine Institutes)[/b]

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[b]The Synod of Laodicea, A.D. 343-381:[/b]

"Canon XXXIV. No [b]Christian[/b] shall forsake the martyrs of Christ, and turn to false martyrs, that is, to [b]those of the heretics[/b], or those who formerly were heretics; for they are aliens from God.  Let those who go after them be anathema."

"Ancient Epitome of Canon XXXIV. Whosoever honours an heretical pseudo-martyr, let him be anathema."

[b]NOTE:[/b] [u]Notice the distinction between Christian and Heretic[/u].
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[b]Do Protestants worship the same God?[/b]

[b]Pope Pius IX, A.D. 1846-1878:[/b]

***INFALLIBLE***: Ex cathedra: (The following three propositions are “absolutely condemned” as errors:)

-        "In the worship of any religion whatever, men can find the way to eternal salvation, and can attain eternal salvation."

-        "We must have at least good hope concerning the eternal salvation of all those who in no wise are in the true Church of Christ."

-        "Protestantism is nothing else than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is possible to serve God as well as in the Catholic Church." (Syllabus of Errors, attached to Quanta Cura above)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[b]Pope Pius IX, A.D. 1846-1878:[/b]

This applies also to Protestantism, since Protestants believe in a Christ who never existed. They believe in a Christ who did not establish a Church to teach, govern and sanctify all men. They believe in a Christ who did not establish a Papacy. They believe in a Christ who does not want us to honor His Holy Mother Mary. (And we know from the Fatima Message that God wants to establish in the world devotion to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart). They believe in a Christ who did not establish seven Sacraments as the primary means of grace for salvation. They believe in a Christ who did not establish the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In short, Protestants worship a false Christ, that is, a false God. This is why Blessed Pope Pius IX taught in his 1864 Syllabus that it is an error to believe that "Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion."[1]

[i]1. Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors, 1864, Condemned Proposition #18. Popes Against Modern Errors: 16 Papal Documents, (Rockford: Tan, 1999), p. 30.[/i]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/quote]
Your first quote is not at all out of line with the 1994 Catechism, but rather applies most directly to the context understood in the early Church.

"If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ" can easily be understood to mean those who leave the Catholic Church. To St. Ignatius, I suspect the vast majority of the people he was addressing had been members of the Catholic Church who turned away. He is not addressing those born into other sects, he is addressing those who left for other sects.

Your second quote logically does not say that non-Catholics are necessarily non-Christians, it only says that St. Pionius is both Christian [b]and[/b] Catholic and that the people he is addressing, who could be pagan for all I know, he is exhorting to become Christian.

In your third quote, the first part you made bold, the key word is [i]fast[/i]. Fast is used in this context to describe a quality of how well a person holds on to the Primacy of Peter. The word, in this context, shows the intent of one persevering in the believe of the Primacy of Peter...it shows an ongoing action, which implies that St. Cyprian is addressing those who have fallen away from belief in the Primacy of St. Peter, not those who were born into a religion which does not believe in it.

The second thing you made bold in the third quote concludes that there is no salvation outside the Church, which is true, but does not define what a heretic is, and therefore accomplishes nothing for your argument.

The fourth quote can easily be taken within the context of the Catechism, and combined with the fact that we can assume St. Lactantius was not addressing those who didn't know the truth of the Church. Therefore it is still safe to believe, as the Catechism does, that this does not apply to those who are ignorant of any false belief on their part or any true belief on the part of the Church.

The fifth quote does not address the issue of ignorance I addressed above, not does it address the issue of those who are born into non-Catholic faiths. In fact, it specifically addresses [b]those who forsake the martyrs of Christ[/b]. Forsake implies those who already held the Catholic faith, not others.

The sixth section is comprised of three quotes. The first and third, per se, are entirely out of line with the 1994 Catechism (though to some, it may seem that the 1994 Catechism is saying those things) and the Church agrees that these propositions are incorrect. These quotes are designed to get those who do not understand the Catechism and what it teaches in the proper context. In the second quote, I believe there is a typo. I will not address it until either I see this fixed and know what it really says, or if you affirm that it is supposed to say that.

Your final quote seems to be a secondary source which uses Pope Pius IX's documents as a primary source answering quote three of the above section. As I have pointed out, this quote is in line with the 1994 Catechism, which

[Aloysius]

actually this is a DIFFERENT thread, lol. this one's about being a Republican in the sense of not being a monarchist, in that the United States of America is a Republic. basically morph started this thread to talk about why he doesn't like the English Monarchy.

don't judge a thread by it's title lol

[IcePrincessKRS]

oops. lol I posted it in the wrong thread... don't worry, I'll delete it.

[Aloysius]

see these PhatMass titles are tricky, you gotta remember the "die-hard republican" thread is talking about republics vs. monarchys, while the "conservative republican" thread is talking about the republican political party, while the "not a republican" is talking about disagreeing with the republican political party


PM is CRAZY

[IcePrincessKRS]

There's too many threads about politics. Bah. I can't keep track of them all. lol

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Bah.  I can't keep track of them all. lol

[/quote]

Did you steal my "bah"?!

How long have you been using that?! I think you stole it from me!

:angry:



But hey, if not...

[Archbishop 10-K]

Die-hard monarchists of the world, UNITE!

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Jun 26 2004, 08:43 PM']
Did you steal my "bah"?!

How long have you been using that?! I think you stole it from me!

:angry:



But hey, if not...

[/quote]
I've been using it for years. lol Don't worry, I won't use it too often. Maybe no one else will notice.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 27 2004, 02:29 AM'] Northern Ireland is not part of England, it is part of the UK. [/quote]
UK Incumbers England, and perhaps Wales. I remember Scotland getting their own freedom again a few years ago. Whether there apart of the Commonwealth im not sure.

[popestpiusx]

I don't think I ever claimed that Northern Ireland was part of England.

Edited June 27, 2004 by popestpiusx

[popestpiusx]

I also think there are too many discussions going on at one time in this thread. It's giving me a headache.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Jun 27 2004, 07:40 AM'] UK Incumbers England, and perhaps Wales. I remember Scotland getting their own freedom again a few years ago. Whether there apart of the Commonwealth im not sure. [/quote]
Scotland has as much control over it's own affairs in the UK as states in the US do over theirs. It's still in the UK.