For those who defend Trump

[CatherineM]

Not trying to start anything, and asking because I don't know, but who did Nambla endorse?

[dominicansoul]

There were rumours Trump donated to NAMBLA, but they endorsed Clinton...

[CatherineM]

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

There were rumours Trump donated to NAMBLA, but they endorsed Clinton...

Makes sense. 

[Luigi]

6 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

... the entire "Trump won and now we are going to be overrun by Nazis, SS troops and the KKK" thing is really over the top paranoia and a real form of hateful characterization.  

So, perhaps both sides drink Koolaid, but liberals must have some hallucinogenic drugs mixed in theirs cos they get whacked out silly crazy... 

It's called CATASTROPHIZATION of CATASTROPHIZING - to create a catastrophe in one's mind. Your mother does it when you're supposed to be home by 11 p.m. and you're still not home at midnight so she jumps to the conclusion that you're dead on the highway, with your brains splattered on the pavement. You do it when you botch a project at work and you jump to the conclusion that you'll be fired because of it, and then you'll lose your house, and then you'll have to live on the street and you'll have to eat partial cans of three-day-old cat food. 

It occurs most frequently in people who feel they have no control over their own lives - they're at the mercy of forces much larger than they, and over which they are powerless. It's a kind of cognitive distortion. In this case, it may be a result of unrealistic expectations perpetuated by the mainstream media, resulting in people feeling like they've just had the control rug pulled out from under them. 

So I can explain it. But that doesn't excuse it.  

[Amppax]

On 11/22/2016 at 8:46 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Worth reading: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/11/mark-shea-lies-bannonbreitbart-the-novelty-of-facts.html

Yep, you'll notice I posted that as well. However, like I've tried to make clear, I disagree with both Shea and Armstrong's characterization. Shea, in his usual histrionics, sees Bannon a racist. Armstrong, as we can see, easily disproves that. Then Shea in response brings up the association, which Armstrong dismisses as an example of the association fallacy. However, what I have argued is that Bannon has intentionally emboldened and mainstreamed a movement which has a significant racist underbelly, that he was aware of that racist element, and that he didn't care that he was using racism and race-baiting to further his own political career. It is easy enough to look through the Breitbart archives on race, or the alt-right, and and see this. This wasn't just an accidental feature of Bannon's embrace of the alt-right, it was essential to it.

All that being said, I think Trump and Bannon have done a good job recently of disavowing the Alt-Right. My own personal feelings are too little too late, but now I'd place the blame on the media for exacerbating the situation, rather than on Trump or Bannon. 

[Nihil Obstat]

32 minutes ago, Amppax said:

Yep, you'll notice I posted that as well. However, like I've tried to make clear, I disagree with both Shea and Armstrong's characterization. Shea, in his usual histrionics, sees Bannon a racist. Armstrong, as we can see, easily disproves that. Then Shea in response brings up the association, which Armstrong dismisses as an example of the association fallacy. However, what I have argued is that Bannon has intentionally emboldened and mainstreamed a movement which has a significant racist underbelly, that he was aware of that racist element, and that he didn't care that he was using racism and race-baiting to further his own political career. It is easy enough to look through the Breitbart archives on race, or the alt-right, and and see this. This wasn't just an accidental feature of Bannon's embrace of the alt-right, it was essential to it.

Just got to that link you sent me, by the way. It was a good read.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle here. It looks like we are all more or less agreeing here that we cannot characterize Bannon as being explicitly racist. Until this thread I was only getting headlines on Facebook which were saying precisely that, so I think we have made progress here.

I do think there is an element to the racism of the alt-right that is basically play-racist. I think some of them are using racism as a tool to offend the people they wish to offend. I agree that in a sense this normalizes racism in the mainstream and that this is a problem. I do not think that this troll-racism is on the same level as literally join-the-KKK-and-lynch-minorities racism. Not just different in degree but also in substance.

There is a sense in which I am just being a bit contrarian. When I disavowed libertarianism I took the opportunity to see what other ideologies had been floating around which I had ignored in the past, and I did some reading of paleoconservative, neoreactionary, and alt-right material. This was a while back now, but I do remember finding racial stuff mixed in here and there which really gave me pause, especially when there was crossover with the really extreme men's rights stuff. Some of those people are truly vile individuals. I find the wide use of the word "cuck" by the alt-right to be absolutely abhorrent.

My primary concern with regards to the debate on this thread is that I think the alt-right movement is broader than we are considering. There is clearly some very troubling racism at the one extreme end, and like you are saying I think it is clear that there are wider parts of the movement which are enabling racism by normalizing it. At the same time I also think that there are elements of the alt-right, probably significant ones, who are either explicitly not racist, or who would would be far happier if there were not racial undertones in the alt-right. To what extent those elements can be sorted I am not sure, but it does at least seem plausible that the alt-right could be divorced entirely from racism, and some of these people who are tainted by their proximity to the racist undercurrents - Steve Bannon possibly being one of these, possibly not - could be rehabilitated if that were the case.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Nihil Obstat

[little2add]

 

Give trump a chance.   If he can tip the supreme court, he win  of done good 

see the dems agenda      

link below :

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-hollingsworth/rep-tim-ryanyoungstown-street-fight-if-trump-tries-defund-plann-0

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by little2add

[Amppax]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Just got to that link you sent me, by the way. It was a good read.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle here. It looks like we are all more or less agreeing here that we cannot characterize Bannon as being explicitly racist. Until this thread I was only getting headlines on Facebook which were saying precisely that, so I think we have made progress here.

I do think there is an element to the racism of the alt-right that is basically play-racist. I think some of them are using racism as a tool to offend the people they wish to offend. I agree that in a sense this normalizes racism in the mainstream and that this is a problem. I do not think that this troll-racism is on the same level as literally join-the-KKK-and-lynch-minorities racism. Not just different in degree but also in substance.

There is a sense in which I am just being a bit contrarian. When I disavowed libertarianism I took the opportunity to see what other ideologies had been floating around which I had ignored in the past, and I did some reading of paleoconservative, neoreactionary, and alt-right material. This was a while back now, but I do remember finding racial stuff mixed in here and there which really gave me pause, especially when there was crossover with the really extreme men's rights stuff. Some of those people are truly vile individuals. I find the wide use of the word "cuck" by the alt-right to be absolutely abhorrent.

My primary concern with regards to the debate on this thread is that I think the alt-right movement is broader than we are considering. There is clearly some very troubling racism at the one extreme end, and like you are saying I think it is clear that there are wider parts of the movement which are enabling racism by normalizing it. At the same time I also think that there are elements of the alt-right, probably significant ones, who are either explicitly not racist, or who would would be far happier if there were not racial undertones in the alt-right. To what extent those elements can be sorted I am not sure, but it does at least seem plausible that the alt-right could be divorced entirely from racism, and some of these people who are tainted by their proximity to the racist undercurrents - Steve Bannon possibly being one of these, possibly not - could be rehabilitated if that were the case.

I think we're probably in agreement then. Which, I tend to think, is more often than not the case. 

[Nihil Obstat]

7 minutes ago, Amppax said:

I think we're probably in agreement then. Which, I tend to think, is more often than not the case. 

 

[philothea]

7 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

My primary concern with regards to the debate on this thread is that I think the alt-right movement is broader than we are considering. There is clearly some very troubling racism at the one extreme end, and like you are saying I think it is clear that there are wider parts of the movement which are enabling racism by normalizing it. At the same time I also think that there are elements of the alt-right, probably significant ones, who are either explicitly not racist, or who would would be far happier if there were not racial undertones in the alt-right.

(Honest question, not a setup.) What do you think the primary ideologies of the alt-right are? Their core belief, as far as I can find, is either "upsetting people for the fun of it" or "white nationalism" depending on which leader you ask. 

[Nihil Obstat]

58 minutes ago, philothea said:

(Honest question, not a setup.) What do you think the primary ideologies of the alt-right are? Their core belief, as far as I can find, is either "upsetting people for the fun of it" or "white nationalism" depending on which leader you ask. 

Perhaps upsetting liberals. My perception of the alt-right is that its core values are nationalism, exceptionalism, and anti-political class. The nationalism is what can become problematic, but I am not totally convinced it is necessarily problematic. Patriotism, after all, is a natural virtue. It is the racial identity which is conflated with patriotism that becomes extremist.

[Socrates]

On 11/22/2016 at 5:28 PM, Peace said:

Come on now. You know plenty well that if Hillary won you would be moaning and complaining to everyone and their uncle for the next 4 years, just like you have been griping about president Obama for the past 8.

The fact that most of the racist groups in the USA seem to flock to Trump is a legitimate topic for discussion.

Probably, just like you'd probably spend the next 4 or 8 years defending everything Hillary does, and trying to explain to us benighted right wingnuts how she really isn't all that bad.

But the OP had nothing to do with anything Mr. Trump actually did, said, or proposed.  Instead, it simply linked to a story about some racist losers yelling "Hail Trump!" and gave it the title "For Those Who Defend Trump," declaring "these are the kind of people who support Trump" (as if all Trump supporters are "that kind of people").  This came off as trollish, accusatory, and insulting, rather than as a legitimate criticism of Mr. Trump.  As the election is already over, such tactics will not change anything, and are pointless.

On 11/23/2016 at 3:47 PM, Peace said:

It seems to me that both sides are brainwashed to a large extent. Two sides of the same coin. The left blindly accepts the narrative that the right comprises a bunch of money hungering racists who could care less about homeless people freezing in the streets. The right blindly accepts the narrative that the left comprises a bunch of Godless sodomites who love putting babies to death and taking hard-earned money out of your pocket.

Neither side seems to view the facts as they are because they are either blinded by or have an undue allegiance to a particular political party or ideology. The only difference is that one side is extremely skewed to the left, and the other side is extremely skewed to the right.

Except that it's an undeniable fact that the Left heavily and consistently supports abortion, as well as homosexual activity and other perversions, in its legislation, judicial rulings, and public rhetoric, as well as in the Dem Party platform itself.  That is not paranoia or propaganda, but obvious reality.  (Do I really need to give examples?)  

On the other hand, for all the leftist hysteria, I have yet to see an example of a mainstream conservative or Republican policy or proposal that is in fact racist, nor of anyone on the right who actually wants homeless people to freeze on the streets.

(Though both major parties love to take hard-earned money out of your pockets.  The majority of GOP "conservative" politicians are complete phonies.)

Obviously, people of all parties and ideologies have their problems, but to say that left and right are exactly the same in this regard is quite simply false.

[Socrates]

On 11/23/2016 at 5:06 PM, dominicansoul said:

I agree to this to some extent...but what we do with the brainwashing is vastly different... lol

Rarely do I see mobs of conservatives rioting in the streets and calling for the death of certain groups of people...

What happened to Pence for example, I doubt conservatives would ever do that to a liberal president or vice president.  And even if conservatives did such a thing, they would be reprimanded severely by the media.

It seems to me that liberals act out more aggressively than conservatives do.  What Trump did throughout his election...mouthing off stupid insults and putting his foot in his mouth was not what I would consider an example of an angry violent white supremacist.   Most of the hate I see these days comes from liberals...  the Black Lives Matter protests chanting death to cops (which proves effective by the way,) the way our Little Sisters of the Poor were treated by the media and liberal commentators, the way Scalia was scorched by the left at his passing, the way conservative women are called shame shames by liberal talking heads without fear of reprimand, the manner in which Trump supporters get beat up, the way all those "defenders" of Trump are called deplorables, bigots, homophobes, racists, misogynists, (when all we really wanted was to make sure Hilary LOST,) the entire "Trump won and now we are going to be overrun by Nazis, SS troops and the KKK" thing is really over the top paranoia and a real form of hateful characterization.  

So, perhaps both sides drink Koolaid, but liberals must have some hallucinogenic drugs mixed in theirs cos they get whacked out silly crazy... 

 

Very true.  Conservatives were obviously not happy with either Obama win, but there were no destructive and violent mass riots, and people did not skip work or school en masse to riot and burn stuff, or wallow in their own misery.

Given the behavior of much of the left, it's ironic that it's conservatives that are routinely decried as the "hateful" ones.

[Peace]

2 hours ago, Socrates said:

Probably, just like you'd probably spend the next 4 or 8 years defending everything Hillary does, and trying to explain to us benighted right wingnuts how she really isn't all that bad.

But the OP had nothing to do with anything Mr. Trump actually did, said, or proposed.  Instead, it simply linked to a story about some racist losers yelling "Hail Trump!" and gave it the title "For Those Who Defend Trump," declaring "these are the kind of people who support Trump" (as if all Trump supporters are "that kind of people").  This came off as trollish, accusatory, and insulting, rather than as a legitimate criticism of Mr. Trump.  As the election is already over, such tactics will not change anything, and are pointless.

Except that it's an undeniable fact that the Left heavily and consistently supports abortion, as well as homosexual activity and other perversions, in its legislation, judicial rulings, and public rhetoric, as well as in the Dem Party platform itself.  That is not paranoia or propaganda, but obvious reality.  (Do I really need to give examples?)  

On the other hand, for all the leftist hysteria, I have yet to see an example of a mainstream conservative or Republican policy or proposal that is in fact racist, nor of anyone on the right who actually wants homeless people to freeze on the streets.

(Though both major parties love to take hard-earned money out of your pockets.  The majority of GOP "conservative" politicians are complete phonies.)

Obviously, people of all parties and ideologies have their problems, but to say that left and right are exactly the same in this regard is quite simply false.

I meant that they are the same in principle, not degree. 

I woud say that the Republican resistance to public health insurance is in the direction of allowing people to freeze. 

As for racism, you can read the Wikipedia article "Southern Strategy" to start.

That's all the time I have for you today.

Peace

[Norseman82]

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Ice_nine said:

These are the kind of people that also support him http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/

Thoughts?

While we're at it, we also should link to the story about the people who blew up an abortion clinic as a "birthday present to baby Jesus" and say "these are the kind of people that also believe in Jesus Christ.  Thoughts?"

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Josh said:

 

For a second I thought Tab was back......