Dubia Submitted to the Holy Father

[LittleWaySoul]

On 12/16/2016 at 10:27 PM, Josh said:

https://youtu.be/VG1_zmn-Ryc  World Over - 2016-12-15 – Amoris Laetitia and the Dubia, Cardinal Raymond Burke with Raymond Arroyo

 

Is Pope Francis trying to help people who can't afford annulments? Aren't they usually approved more often then not if you can afford them? I realize up to a 1000 dollars can be alot of money but most people can come up with it if it means they can marry again with no guilt. On the other hand something seems wrong about someone poor not being able to get an annulment yet someone who can afford it can.

 

On 12/16/2016 at 11:00 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Of course money is a concern for those who do not have it. But it is not integral to the process (obviously), and in cases of genuine need there are arrangements that can be made. 

 

Quick reminder that Mitis Iudex explicitly stated that the process was to be made available "at minimum of cost."

As far as I know, most (all?) Tribunals either charge an optional amount or ask only for a donation. For example, I believe my diocese says something like, "This is how much it costs to run the Tribunal per annulment. This is how much is covered by the Annual Catholic Appeal. This is the remaining cost not covered by the ACA. If you can afford it, we would greatly appreciate your contribution. No payment is mandatory and all applications will be processed regardless of monetary gift." And then the petitioner either gives money or they don't and their case is processed regardless.

[truthfinder]

14 minutes ago, LittleWaySoul said:

 

 

Quick reminder that Mitis Iudex explicitly stated that the process was to be made available "at minimum of cost."

As far as I know, most (all?) Tribunals either charge an optional amount or ask only for a donation. For example, I believe my diocese says something like, "This is how much it costs to run the Tribunal per annulment. This is how much is covered by the Annual Catholic Appeal. This is the remaining cost not covered by the ACA. If you can afford it, we would greatly appreciate your contribution. No payment is mandatory and all applications will be processed regardless of monetary gift." And then the petitioner either gives money or they don't and their case is processed regardless.

I think for the most part that's how things work in most North American dioceses.  Anecdotally, I have heard of cases in Asia and South America that were very much "it costs x and you must pay."

Edited January 3, 2017 by truthfinder

[LittleWaySoul]

9 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

I think for the most part that's how things work in most North American dioceses.  Anecdotally, I have heard of cases in Asia and South America that were very much "it costs x and you must pay."

Huh, interesting. They do have a right to charge for the process, as far as I know, especially considering office costs, personnel salaries, etc. But they should be providing free or reduced prices on service to those who are legitimately unable to afford the cost, especially in light of Mitis Iudex. I hope they do so.

[PhuturePriest]

On a somewhat related topic, can we talk about the potential of rampant abuse in the system we already have? Many (if not most) people seem to have a mindset of "I'm going to get and annulment" rather than "I'm going to see if my marriage was null". I was speaking to a priest friend of mine, and he said in his priesthood spanning several decades he has never seen one case of a request for annulment denied. While the Law may say differently, it seems at least in some circles annulments are treated as nothing more than "Catholic divorce".

Should we perhaps be more focused on catechizing the faithful properly on marriage and ensuring better education of canon lawyers than we are now to avoid such likely abuse? It seems this is an issue not being talked about or addressed, and the only efforts concerning it being made are to make it even easier for this behavior to continue on.

[Amppax]

45 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

On a somewhat related topic, can we talk about the potential of rampant abuse in the system we already have? Many (if not most) people seem to have a mindset of "I'm going to get and annulment" rather than "I'm going to see if my marriage was null". I was speaking to a priest friend of mine, and he said in his priesthood spanning several decades he has never seen one case of a request for annulment denied. While the Law may say differently, it seems at least in some circles annulments are treated as nothing more than "Catholic divorce".

Should we perhaps be more focused on catechizing the faithful properly on marriage and ensuring better education of canon lawyers than we are now to avoid such likely abuse? It seems this is an issue not being talked about or addressed, and the only efforts concerning it being made are to make it even easier for this behavior to continue on.

 

I've heard, from professors, that annulment denial isn't as uncommon in less developed parts of the world, though annulments are more uncommon. 

[Guest]

Just now, Amppax said:

I've heard, from professors, that annulment denial isn't as uncommon in less developed parts of the world, though annulments are more uncommon. 

So basically if you have money and stature there easier to get.

[Amppax]

5 minutes ago, Josh said:

So basically if you have money and stature there easier to get.

Not necessarily, though I'm sure that's part of it. The explanation I've heard is that the tribunals are potentially more lax. 

[truthfinder]

You can also appeal the decision of the local tribunal - apparently Rome has a high rate of rejecting annulment approvals. 

I think the greater problem is that there are a lot of pastors who should be denying weddings - they are giving the impression that a majority of weddings are 'hunky-dory' when in fact they aren't. This is where pastoral judgement comes in, but I'd wager that most couples who were married by a priest didn't come back to the faith as he may have hoped. Sometimes the couple does when they have children but in the majority of cases it may have been better to have a couple contract a clearly sacramentally invalid marriage which is easier to rectify than a dubious church wedding.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

I think the greater problem is that there are a lot of pastors who should be denying weddings

If a priest refuses a wedding, one would probably either marry outside The Church thus their understanding and Faith lacking, - or accept Father's reasons and work on those reasons - with him is best.  This is what Pope Francis is trying to emphasise i.e "journey with".

Their might be other roads taken if a wedding is refused.

Edited January 3, 2017 by BarbaraTherese

[Jack4]

 

Difficulties confronting the faith in Europe today

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect

Meeting with the Doctrinal Commissions of Europe
(Laxenburg, 2 May 1989)

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/incontri/rc_con_cfaith_19890502_laxenburg-ratzinger_en.html

 

[Jack4]

The Pope Is Not Answering the Four Cardinals. But Few Justify Him

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1351432?eng=y

[Jack4]

 "We cannot make our subjection to the Vicar of Christ dependent upon the person of the pope; this would not be faith. You cannot say that “I don’t believe in this pope, I don’t submit, I am going to wait until one comes along that I like.” This is not Catholic, it is not supernatural; it is human. It is a lack of supernaturality and trust in Divine Providence, that God is the one who guides the Church. "

Who said this? + Athanasius Schneider. 

Rigid pharisees affirming Petrine Authority? Unthinkable! 

[Guest]

Quote

 

1 Corinthians Ch3 "AND I, brethren, could not speak to you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal. As unto little ones in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal. For, whereas there is among you envying and contention, are you not carnal, and walk according to man ? For while one saith, I indeed am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollo; are you not men ? What then is Apollo, and what is Paul? The ministers of him whom you have believed; and to every one as the Lord hath given.

I have planted, Apollo watered, but God gave the increase. Therefore, neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."

 

Quote

 

1 Corinthians Chapter 1 : Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?  thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.

 

 

[beatitude]

I would like to ask for prayers. I know a divorced and civilly remarried Catholic who hasn't been to confession in at least thirty years, because she is afraid she will be told to stop receiving Communion. This is a person I love and respect very much, and who has helped me greatly in my own spiritual life. She is my mother.

 

I once described the situation in detail to a friend who is a canon lawyer and he said that he's as sure as he can be that she has serious solid grounds for an annulment. Unfortunately she has got the idea that applying for annulment would be like admitting what happened back then was her fault, and she is not open to a discussion on it, as it's traumatic for her. It involves the death of the half-sister I never got to meet, among other terrible things.

 

Like many Catholics, I'm worried by the confusion over Amoris Laetitia. I love our Holy Father, I think he has a lot of zeal for Catholics who have been badly hurt by the Church's clergy (and we can't pretend that clergy and hierarchy have always been perfect in their response to such people), but I also feel that his zeal may lead him to be impulsive and even reckless at times. It's a legitimate concern. But how we respond to that does matter and I'm equally frightened by the lack of charity that I see in certain orthodox Catholic circles. Today the chaplain at my alma mater posted something on Facebook about the whole controversy...and a friend of his responded by wishing death on the Pope. I'm horrified by that, which is what nudged me to ask for prayers for my mother here. The devil will exploit the confusion over all this to try and bring out the worst in us and at this stage I think the only way out of the mire is through prayer and more prayer.

[Guest]

An honest question to which I genuinely do not know the answer.

Doesn't someone(s) of a particular expertise (whatever area might be required)check out these Papal Documents before they are published, or does the Holy Father simply write them and send them to the publisher?  I would have thought they would be checked out by whomsoever(s) and any problems discussed with The Holy Father before publication?  Of course, The Holy Father, would make the final decision.

11 hours ago, beatitude said:

But how we respond to that does matter and I'm equally frightened by the lack of charity that I see in certain orthodox Catholic circles.

 10/10

Prayer for your mother, beatitiude.