Pope Francis Continues to Denigrate Traditionalists

[Nihil Obstat]

[Credo in Deum]

As a traditionalist I take no offense to these remarks made by Pope Francis. 

 

 

However...

...as a level 5 knight of Eldershire, of the 9th realm of Asdorf, I'm deeply appalled.

[Maggyie]

I think the critique Pope Francis offers is useful. Traditionalists as a group are very critical of other parts of the Body of Christ, while often envincing little self criticism of their movement, or meaningful self awareness. To be fair many other factions in the church have the same issue - where it is more important to be right than to be holy, and not being able to detect when attachment to a "way" is morphing into idolatry. So I think it should be taken on board in the spirit it was offered - with openness and maturity, not deflection. The Pope doesn't have to like us, for his comments to be worthwhile. 

[Socrates]

On 11/11/2016 at 2:07 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Look, I am pretty used to stuff like this. But you just get sick of hearing it day after day.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=29904

We who prefer the traditional Mass are necessarily rigid. Rigidity means we are defensive, hiding something, and we do not have "true love". These are blanket statements.

You know... That is me, my wife, it will be our future children, almost all of our closest friends, everyone at our parish. (And this is a fully 'approved' traditional Mass community, no canonical fighting, no question of our obedience.) The priests who have ministered to our community, the very best priests I have had the honour to know.

You know what I see? Not rigidity or defensiveness. We are all regular Catholics, we take the faith seriously. We get married and have kids, we work hard to make sure our Masses are beautiful, we pray the rosary before Mass, we host catechism classes and chant practicums, we started up a children's chant choir, and our adult choir is excellent and dedicated, we sponsor seminarians and missions. We hold processions, celebrate feast days, host summer camps. We have a men's guild and a mothers' group, the Legion of Mary, Patrician Society. We meet after Mass and have coffee, we play soccer, we look after each other's kids and share meals, we exchange advice and prayers and support. We are just all regular practicing Catholics who want to believe what the Church has always believed.

He is our pope. I pray for him daily, and for his intentions. But the pope simply does not like us. It is clear as day. He wants us not to exist. He has been saying things like this since the first days of his pontificate, and he will continue to say them.

 

Anyway, I am just complaining. Thank you for indulging me.

You're a hateful bigot.  And a racist.

Everyone knows real Catholicism is all about socialism and dancing clowns.

 

But seriously, this current pope drives me nuts too.

[dominicansoul]

My advice is to continue to worship in the rich tradition of the Catholic Church and do not allow the Pope's opinionated words affect you. 

Popes come and go, but the Catholic Church, in all her splendor and beauty and her rich Traditional liturgy will endure...

[Kateri89]

If Pope Francis ever addresses young people to ask why we prefer the TLM, I would be very happy to explain my own reasoning.  I grew up with the NO and I know it like the back of my hand, or so I thought.  It wasn't until I began attending the TLM and following along in the missal that I learned of so many of the prayers that the priest offers silently.  Seeing big families, modest church attire, attentiveness to what is taking place upon the altar, and hearing the haunting polyphony/chants is a stark contrast to what I see in the world.  I've attended reverent NO masses and irreverent NO masses.  If it is a reverent NO mass, I have no problem with it.  I still prefer the TLM but I have no objection to the NO.  However, I find an exquisite beauty in the TLM that I feel transcends time and I believe that beauty will draw people back to the church.  I know that there are "Traditionalists" that tend to be more exclusive than inclusive but I promise that I have experienced that from NO Catholics who are equally critical of the "outdated" Catholics.  I don't attend the TLM to feel like I'm in an elite club; I attend it because I love the way it honors Christ in His passion and death.  I pray that I receive the graces needed to leave Mass and carry Christ to everyone I meet.

 

The only other thing I want to say is that I pray in this thread for people to be respectful to our Holy Father.  Even if you feel that he is being disrespectful of you, it is a hallmark of holiness to love those who persecute you.  Whether he is actually persecuting TLM-attending Catholics or not is uncertain but I pray that when people voice their concerns about him, they remain respectful.

[Peace]

On 11/13/2016 at 11:45 PM, Socrates said:

But seriously, this current pope drives me nuts too.

Perhaps Pope Francis should be a bit more like Ted Cruz so that Socrates' feelings don't get hurt?

[Socrates]

12 hours ago, Peace said:

Perhaps Pope Francis should be a bit more like Ted Cruz so that Socrates' feelings don't get hurt?

Or perhaps like John Paul the Great, Benedict XVI, Pius XI, Pius XII, or John XXIII. . . .

 

 

(And I'm not really sure what exactly Ted Cruz has to do with this thread, but apparently you're obsessed with the guy.)

[dominicansoul]

13 hours ago, Peace said:

Perhaps Pope Francis should be a bit more like Ted Cruz so that Socrates' feelings don't get hurt?

That would make Pope Francis an ex-Catholic non-denominational evangelical....

 

so...no....

[Socrates]

On 11/12/2016 at 10:47 AM, Sponsa-Christi said:

To be fair, I think it's safe to say that Pope Francis has criticized the faults and failings of more or less EVERY group in the Church!

Has he?

I admit I don't follow everything Pope Francis says, but a criticism I've often seen (from those who do follow him more carefully) is that he tends to criticize those on "the right," while being silent about problems on "the left."  For instance, after the "Synod on the Family," he criticized those concerned about the implications regarding divorce and remarriage as "rigid," etc., while saying nothing to those Catholics who wish to change and "modernize" the Church's moral teaching. 

If you have examples to prove this wrong, I'd be happy to see them.

[Sponsa-Christi]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

If you have examples to prove this wrong, I'd be happy to see them.

Just off the top of my head, one group of presumable "liberals" the Pope has criticized are adults who choose pets and lifestyle over children: http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/pope-francis-choose-children-over-pets

The Pope also oversaw some follow-up for the Apostolic Visitation, with "liberal" groups of nuns being the ones invited into further dialogue (perhaps not exactly a criticism per se, but definitely an expression of concern): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/american-nun-summoned-to-vatican-liberal-minded-sisters

On many occasions, Pope Francis has criticized priests who would make the liturgy about their own personalities rather than the worship of God (a problem which is often seen as a "liberal priest" problem), such as when he urged priests to have short and simple homilies: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/american-nun-summoned-to-vatican-liberal-minded-sisters 

But I really don't think Pope Francis calls people out based on whether they're "left" or "right," especially since most people don't fit neatly into either category. I think Pope Francis want to bring back the lost sheep---which might make him sound like he's being "liberal" at times; while at the same time he wants to challenge those already within the fold to greater holiness---which might make him sound like he's criticizing devout, "conservative" Catholics. 

[Jack4]

Papolatry?

From interviews from Bishop Athanasius Schneider of Astana, Turkey. Well-known in traditionalist circles. Author of Dominus est. Wants a new Syllabus of Errors on Vatican II. Promotes EF and CotT. Also made news by his remarks on Amoris Laetitia. 

Quote

 

The bishop went on to give advice regarding how faithful Catholics, who love the Pope and do not wish to harm the papacy, might express themselves in raising concerns about Pope Francis. 

The Church is not run like a “dictatorship” where no one can “contradict the dictator,” he said, adding that the Holy Father is “our father” and Catholics must not be afraid to voice their cares and concerns to him over his governance of the Church. 

Source: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/video-bishop-schneider-12-steps-to-surviving-as-a-catholic-family-in-a-mora

 

Quote

 

Rorate Caeli: Still on the Synod, it is clear to those with eyes to see that Pope Francis caused confusion instead of clarity in the Synod process, and encouraged a turn toward rupture by elevating the role of Cardinals Kaspar and Danneels, Archbishop Cupich, etc. What is the proper attitude a Catholic should have towards the pope in these troubled times? Are Catholics obliged to make their views known and “resist” as Cardinal Burke said in an interview last year with us, even when their views are critical of the pope?

H.E. Schneider: For several past generations until our days there reigns in the life of the Church a kind of “pope-centrism” or a kind of “papolatria” which is undoubtedly excessive compared with the moderate and supernatural vision of the person of the Pope and his due veneration in the past times. Such an excessive attitude towards the person of the Pope generates in the practice an excessive and wrong theological meaning regarding the dogma of the Papal infallibility. 

If the Pope would tell the entire church to do something, which would directly damage an unchangeable Divine truth or a Divine commandment, every Catholic would have the right to correct him in a due respectful form, moved out of reverence and love for the sacred office, and person of the Pope. The Church is not the private property of the Pope. The Pope can’t say “I am the Church,” as it did the French king Louis XIV, who said: “L’État c’est moi.” The Pope is only the Vicar, not the successor of Christ.

The concerns about the purity of the faith is ultimately a matter of all members of the Church, which is one, and a unique living body. In the ancient times before entrusting to someone the office of a priest and of a bishop, the faithful were asked if they can guarantee that the candidate had the right faith, and a high moral conduct. The old Pontificale Romanum says: “The captain of a ship and its passengers alike have reason to feel safe or else in danger on a voyage, therefore they ought to be of one mind in their common interests.” It was the Second Vatican Council, which very much encouraged the lay faithful to contribute to the authentic good of the Church, in strengthening the faith. 

I think in a time in which a great part of the holders of the office of the Magisterium are negligent in their sacred duty, the Holy Spirit calls today, namely the faithful, to step into the breach and defend courageously with an authentic “sentire cum ecclesia” the Catholic faith.

Rorate Caeli: Is the pope the measure of tradition, or is he measured by tradition? And should faithful Catholics pray for a traditional pope to arrive soon?

H.E. Schneider: The Pope is surely not the measure of tradition, but on the contrary. We must always bear in mind the following dogmatic teaching of the First Vatican Council: The office of the successors of Peter does not consist in making known some new doctrine, but in guarding and faithfully expounding the deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles (cf. Constitutio dogmatica Pastor aeternus, cap. 4). 

In fulfilling one of his most important tasks, the Pope has to strive so that “the whole flock of Christ might be kept away from the poisonous food of error” (First Vatican Council, ibd.).  The following expression which was in use since the first centuries of the Church, is one of the most striking definitions of the Papal office, and has to be in some sense a second nature of every Pope: “Faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith” (First Vatican Council, ibd.). 

We must always pray that God provides His Church with traditional-minded Popes. However, we have to believe in these words: “It is not for you to have knowledge of the time and the order of events which the Father has kept in his control” (Acts 1: 7). 

Source: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/02/exclusive-bishop-athanasius-schneider.html

 

 

[Peace]

53 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

Papolatry?

From interviews from Bishop Athanasius Schneider of Astana, Turkey. Well-known in traditionalist circles. Author of Dominus est. Wants a new Syllabus of Errors on Vatican II. Promotes EF and CotT. Also made news by his remarks on Amoris Laetitia...

I know right?! When the pope agrees with me he has full, supreme, and universal power to which the whole Church must assent. 

When he disagrees with me, not so much.

[Jack4]

10 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

Just off the top of my head, one group of presumable "liberals" the Pope has criticized are...

Thank you. Do you have examples of him criticizing EENS denial, atheism, deism, indifference, relativism, moral subjectivity,  etc?  By these, I mean the core or basis or cause of modernism, as opposed to effects or consequences or conclusions. 

[dUSt]

Maybe we should all view the pope's words as a call to be more holy and an opportunity to improve our interior lives rather than just simple criticism. Does one criticize a teacher for pointing out how students could improve their math problem solving? Let the pope do his job, and then you do yours.