Do You Remember?

[thessalonian]

Hi All,

I've been a member for a while but havent posted much. I have a little question for you all.

The most common objection to the Catholic view of the real presence is that it says to "do this in remmeberence of me.". i.e. rememberance = symboly. The implication is that we are supposed to remember what happened in the past by the bread and the wine causing a light bulb to go off in our head. The word rememberance allegedly tells us that it is about a past event. But my question for you today is does remberence preclude prescence? As food for thought:

CCC 1341 The command of Jesus to repeat his actions and words "until he comes" does not only ask us to remember Jesus and what he did. It is directed at the liturgical celibaration, by the apostles and their successors, of the memorial of Christ, of his life, of his death, of his resurreciton, AND OF HIS INTERCESSSION IN THE PRESCENCE OF THE FATHER.

Jesus said "I will be with you always until the end of time.". Surely he wants us to remember this prescence which is not in the past. He said "where two or more are gathered, there I am in their midst". Should we remember that he is present when two or more are gathered. Should we remember that he said that "my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink" (note the present tense). Something they would be likely to remember at the last supper as John 6 occured one year before Matt 26 (see John 6:4). Does rememberence preclude prescence. If I had to go to court for something I didn't do, ie. murder, and my wife said "remember I will be praying for you in the courtroom" does that mean that she prayed for me in the past and is not present in the courtroom. Is rememberence with regard to Jesus Christ a remeberence of nice things he did for us in the past or a rememberence of his real and continuing prescence today?

.

Blessings

[ironmonk]

Great Post!

God Bless!

ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

THe problem is the translation. There is no word in English that is equivalent to the word Jesus and the Church uses: anamnesis.

here is a discussion we just had on another board. The writer is a theologian.

The definition of Anamnesis which you read is closer to the original

meaning than what we have in English - but it still does not cover the full

definition of the Greek word 'anamnesis'.

Jesus said (as expressed in English), "Do this 'in anamnesis' of me.

"Make ye my anamnesis" is UNDOUBTEDLY a better technical expresson of

the Greek than "Do this in (remembrance, memory, commemoration, memorial, or

memory) of me. All the words in (parens) have been used in various English

translations of Jesus' words in our English language Mass.

Various translators used those words because they corporately know there

is no English word which fully truly carries the sense of

the Greek word "anamnesis".

"Make you my anamnesis" is technically more accurate - but it would be

incomprehensible to most people.

Again, there is no precise English equivalent of anamnesis. WHY IS THAT

TRUE?

It is true because "commemoration", "remembrance", "memorial",

"memory" and all similar English words have a connotation of something which

is mentally remembered, without the thing itself being present in any other

way.

On the other hand (unlike our closesest English equivalents), in the

Scriptures 'anamnesis' (and its verbal form) means "recalling" or

"remembering" or "representing" before God a past event in THAT IS ACTUALLY

OPERATIVE IN ITS AFFECTS HERE AND NOW.

This is the actual sense of our English "commemoration" or "remembrance"

or "memorial" or "memory" which is used here when Our Lord says "Make you my

anamnesis".

It is not just a recalling of some past event.

While it IS also a "making present" of something which took place in the

past:

It is ALSO a reference to something which actually took place in the

past - but - whose affects are operatively also actually present in the here

and now. That is why it is referred to in several OT prophecies as a

"perpetual sacrifice" which will take place as a result of the arrival of

the Messiah.

But there is no way to clearly express in English the sense of the Greek

original.

[cmotherofpirl]

bump

[thessalonian]

cmotherofpirl,

thanks much for your additional comments which have allowed me to deepen my understanding. It is great to go to a celebration rather than a funeral every Sunday.

blessings

[VeraMaria]

Thanks, that was interesting! :)

[thessalonian]

Let's bump this up a bit.

[ironmonk]

Something to remember... The Apostles did not speak Greek.

Aramaic... is what they spoke.

We have to be careful when getting "literal" in the Greek... we must know the Aramaic if we want to get literal.

If we don't know the Aramaic; then we must look at what the early Church had to say about it to fully understand it.

...not arguing, just pointing something out.... point being many anti-Catholics like to get literal with the Greek (i.e. brothers of Christ, Peter as the Rock, etc...)

God Bless,

ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

Matthew , mark and John were Jews. Luke was not. Greek may have been his first language. We don't know.

We do not have tha aramaic word that anamnesis comes from. We do know that the Church uses this particular greek word which means "the past is present now" to describe what happens at Mass. This is the teaching of the Church.