Pets in Heaven

[Guest]

Hi Jack - And your actual point is?  A link to your source of quotation is always helpful too.

Edited November 12, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Hi Jack 

A guy in plane stood up n shouted

 

“HIJACK!”

 

All passengers got scared and raised Hands

 

from other end Of the plane a guy shouted back

 

.

 

“Hi JOHN” :-D

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

And your actual point is?

That pets don't have immortal souls as they are not rational creatures. 

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

A link to your source of quotation is always helpful too.

It is from the writings of a Thomist theologian, whom I've met online. 

[Jack4]

.....Collateral question: Are there pets in Hell?

On 11/11/2016 at 0:39 PM, BarbaraTherese said:

then why could God not raise .....

"With God all things are possible" (Matthew Ch19)  God is not limited by human reason, nor by human imagination.

1. God cannot do the logically impossible. 

I'm sure you agree with me on this premise. Divine Omnipotence doesn't mean God can do the logically impossible. God can't make a wall so high he can't jump over it; He can't make sausage so hot that he can't eat it; He cant draw a square with three sides. 

2. Irrational creatures having immortal souls is logically impossible 

I quoted my theologian-friend to prove this premise. 

Put #1 and #2 together,... 

[Guest]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 5:39 PM, BarbaraTherese said:

Dust we are and to dust we return (while our souls are immortal).  On the last day, however, our bodies will be raised and united again with our souls - then why could God not raise the material body and material soul of animals which have returned to dust, along with our human material bodies.

 

I agree with Aquinas that animals have material souls.  Since our bodies are material and return to dust, yet God raises them to immortality, raising from dust the material bodies and souls of animals would not be impossible for God nor defy logic, if one agrees with St Thomas, or so it seems to me; therefore: "All things are [indeed] possible to God".

Only human beings have a supernatural capacity in their immortal souls; therefore, only human beings have the capacity for the Beatific Vision.  As I said somewhere before, prior to the arrest of Jesus He states that in His Father's House there are many mansions adding " I go to prepare a place for you".  This obviously seems to me to be the mansion of the Beatific Vision, which can be accessed only after the Death of Jesus.  Animals could belong to another mansion in Heaven that does not have the Beatific Vision since animals souls are material, material souls which could be once more united to their material bodies and granted immortality, as our own material bodies are.  Nothing there illogical for God.

Nothing in the above contradictory to St Thomas Aquinas that I can see.

And see Catholic Catechism: "The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ (CCC 1047). "

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jack4 said:

It is from the writings of a Thomist theologian, whom I've met online. 

As a resource, Jack, the above is not a sound theological resource others could accept as sound, or I wouldn't anyway since there is no way of checking out the reliability.  It is a source for sure, however, and it might be your source is spot on with the theology of Aquinas.  I am not sufficiently educated in his theology to know, which is why links are especially helpful to me.  I can research who the source actually is and how reliable re Catholic teaching. 

The problem with online 'relationships' is that the other person can state whatever they wish to state - most often with no way to check out that they are who they say they are.  You might know that your source is very reliable for one reason or another, however I do not.  This is why links are important for me, essential where Church teaching per se is concerned.

Someone educated in the theology of St Thomas might be able to read your text and state that it is indeed in line with St Thomas.  I am not thus educated.

2 hours ago, Jack4 said:

Are there pets in Hell?

Can pets commit mortal sin?

Edited November 12, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

Quote

Catholic Catechism: 299 Because God creates through wisdom, his creation is ordered: "You have arranged all things by measure and number and weight."151 The universe, created in and by the eternal Word, the "image of the invisible God", is destined for and addressed to man, himself created in the "image of God" and called to a personal relationship with God.152 Our human understanding, which shares in the light of the divine intellect, can understand what God tells us by means of his creation, though not without great effort and only in a spirit of humility and respect before the Creator and his work.153 Because creation comes forth from God's goodness, it shares in that goodness - "And God saw that it was good. . . very good"154- for God willed creation as a gift addressed to man, an inheritance destined for and entrusted to him. On many occasions the Church has had to defend the goodness of creation, including that of the physical world.155

Think about it

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

 

I agree with Aquinas that animals have material souls.  Since our bodies are material and return to dust, yet God raises them to immortality, raising from dust the material bodies and souls of animals would not be impossible for God nor defy logic, if one agrees with St Thomas, or so it seems to me; therefore: "All things are [indeed] possible to God".

Only human beings have a supernatural capacity in their immortal souls; therefore, only human beings have the capacity for the Beatific Vision.  As I said somewhere before, prior to the arrest of Jesus He states that in His Father's House there are many mansions adding " I go to prepare a place for you".  This obviously seems to me to be the mansion of the Beatific Vision, which can be accessed only after the Death of Jesus.  Animals could belong to another mansion in Heaven that does not have the Beatific Vision since animals souls are material, material souls which could be once more united to their material bodies and granted immortality, as our own material bodies are.  Nothing there illogical for God.

Nothing in the above contradictory to St Thomas Aquinas that I can see.

And see Catholic Catechism: "The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ (CCC 1047). "

From the Compendium of the CCC:

209. What is meant by the term “heaven”?

1023-1026
1053

By “heaven” is meant the state of supreme and definitive happiness. Those who die in the grace of God and have no need of further purification are gathered around Jesus and Mary, the angels and the saints. They thus form the Church of heaven, where they see God “face to face” (1 Corinthians 13:12). They live in a communion of love with the Most Blessed Trinity and they intercede for us.

“True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life.” (Saint Cyril of Jerusalem)

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

By “heaven” is meant the state of supreme and definitive happiness, the Compendium teaches.

So, asking "Can pets be in <Heaven>?" is the same as asking "Can pets be in <"the state of supreme and definitive happiness>?" 

 

I'll get back to you. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Jack4 said:

1 - By “heaven” is meant the state of supreme and definitive happiness, the Compendium teaches.

2 - So, asking "Can pets be in <Heaven>?" is the same as asking "Can pets be in <"the state of supreme and definitive happiness>?" 

 

3 - I'll get back to you. 

1 -  Certainly, for the purposes of the CCC they have defined what "heaven" means when the noun is used in the CCC.

   (why can't a pet know a "state of supreme and definitive happiness" (i.e. heaven) for a pet and a heaven (mansion?) for them -   "Heaven" as noun is not being used according to the definition for the CCC purposes, but heaven in general terms i.e. life after death.)

2 - "Can pets be in Heaven?"  If you mean by Heaven, the Beatific Vision - then no, pets cannot be in Heaven.

(Reminds me of that annoying Big V and little v re vocations)

3 - I thought you might, Jack

As with exchanges in other threads, Jack, I don't think we are going anywhere.  You hold to your side of the fence, and I hold to mine - and never the twain shall meet.  I am about, I think, to abandon this thread, because and with much respect, as in previous threads, you do not address my points but keep raising your own. 

We can agree to differ about pets and heaven.

____________

 

Presupposing we both make it to Heaven, Jack, I'll take you along to heaven and introduce you to Buddie and Missie and all my beloved previous pets now moved on.  Itsa date, Jack!  

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

1 -  Certainly, for the purposes of the CCC they have defined what "heaven" means when the noun is used in the CCC.

   (why can't a pet know a "state of supreme and definitive happiness" (i.e. heaven) for a pet and a heaven (mansion?) for them -   "Heaven" as noun is not being used according to the definition for the CCC purposes, but heaven in general terms i.e. life after death.)

2 - "Can pets be in Heaven?"  If you mean by Heaven, the Beatific Vision - then no, pets cannot be in Heaven.

(Reminds me of that annoying Big V and little v re vocations)

I've never heard about a difference between heaven and Heaven. Can you explain that more?

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

3 - I thought you might, Jack

When I'd said that, I thought I'd respond in a few days. Are all women so impatient? Ugh. (LOL only, no offense).

In that response, I thought, I would respond more closely to your points.

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

As with exchanges in other threads, Jack, I don't think we are going anywhere.  You hold to your side of the fence, and I hold to mine - and never the twain shall meet.  I am about, I think, to abandon this thread, because and with much respect, as in previous threads, you do not address my points but keep raising your own. 

People have opinions. Sometimes opinions have people, and this is very sad. I would never want to be the latter. With some time (it seems that my definition of "some time" is a longer period than yours), I would be able to respond to address your points one by one. Hope you don't mind.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Jack4 said:

I've never heard about a difference between heaven and Heaven. Can you explain that more?

It is only my way alone of distinguishing that pets do not have the Beatific Vision but that they do have a life after death and a place of eternal happiness.  It is something of a play on the terms Big V and small v (Vocation and vocation) used sometimes re the different vocations to put them on a scale of importance or something or other.

 Big H and small h is not theological, nor insofar as I know ever used by The Church nor theology, nor am I propounding anything theological........... just as Big V and small v is not theological

We might  have a life after death eventually and a place of happiness for them - and a place where we can once again interact with them and they with us.

The following is good enough for me:

10 hours ago, Jack4 said:

And see Catholic Catechism: "1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.⁶³⁹

1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.⁶⁴⁰

 

5 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

We might  have a life after death eventually and a place of happiness for them - and a place where we can once again interact with them and they with us.

Phatmass software does seem to like to edit the way it sees fit at times.  The above should read "We might have a problem of definition.  What I mean by "heaven" for pets is a life after death eventually...........

Edited November 12, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Jack4]

@BarbaraTherese,

I seem to have a busy week ahead so it might take even more time. Thanks. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Jack4 said:

@BarbaraTherese,

I seem to have a busy week ahead so it might take even more time. Thanks. 

@Jack4    Thank you for the advice.

 

[Jack4]

14 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

@Jack4    Thank you for the advice.

You're welcome (though I wonder what advice I gave)...

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Jack4 said:

You're welcome (though I wonder what advice I gave)...

What follows is the advice you advised

On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 1:07 AM, Jack4 said:

@BarbaraTherese,

I seem to have a busy week ahead so it might take even more time. Thanks. 

 

 

[Guest]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 11:32 AM, BarbaraTherese said:

Catholic Catechism

1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.⁶⁴⁰

Catholic Catechism: 1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.⁶³⁹

As I posted previously, the above is good enough for me, nothing ambiguous about it except for one minor potential ambiguity - and if raised as a subject would contradict the whole and invite pedantry.