Priest Says Who to Vote For

[Socrates]

On 11/13/2016 at 10:41 PM, Socrates said:

First of all, I think it's false to say the pro-life movement has accomplished absolutely nothing.  There has been plenty of good achieved at the individual level - women convinced by pro-lifers not to kill their baby and choose life, persons who have individually converted from "pro-choice" to pro-life, based on the testimony of pro-lifers, etc.  Obviously, the numbers aren't anywhere where we want them to be, but it's not fair to blame this entirely on the alleged horribleness of pro-lifers.

I had meant to also add that the number of abortions in the U.S. has fallen, and there are now more state restrictions on abortion than at any time since Roe. V. Wade (even though the SCOTUS has struck some down).   I believe much of this is in fact due to the efforts of pro-lifers.  Obviously, we still have a long, long way to go, but I don't think you can fairly say the pro-life movement has accomplished nothing.)

[Anomaly]

Even a quick read at Wikipedia about abortion illustrates how much worse it could be.  There is constant effort to remove any restrictions to abortion, have taxes fund it, etc.    The pro-life movement has accomplished much.

Heck, abortion was specifically mentioned and discussed at Trump 's 60 minutes interview.  It is a huge issue in Florida politics and Dems spent millions pounding on that.  

Its been 40 years and abortion is still a hot issue because pro-life supporters haven't given up.  

[Nihil Obstat]

7 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

 

Its been 40 years and abortion is still a hot issue because pro-life supporters haven't given up.  

Thank God. Seems like a lot of Catholic voters are ready to throw in the towel, based on the rhetoric I was hearing this election cycle.

[PhuturePriest]

5 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

Got it calling people murderers who are perpetuating a Holocaust that's bad. But saying other kinds of people are like morons shouting in the street who accomplished nothing, that's acceptable. Okay, all right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

I didn't say we were morons. I didn't say anyone was a moron. I said the rhetorical tools we use make us look like morons. Comparing people to Nazis is not an effective, intelligent, or charitable rhetorical skill. You can debate this point all you'd like, but no one, upon being compared to a Nazi, has ever said "Oh! Well I've never thought of it that way before -- you've converted me to your side!"

The comparison may be strong -- and indeed, it is horrific that more babies have died from abortion than people were killed in the Holocaust. But it should not be used to denigrate the dignity of persons into Satanic baby-hating automatons by comparing them to Nazis. As even Abby Johnson says, the large majority of people working in Planned Parenthood sincerely believe they are working for the good of women and do not have any malice. The faster we understand people who disagree with us on grave issues are not necessarily knowingly so, the better our evangelization methods will become.

3 hours ago, Socrates said:

It's actually not clear exactly what you were trying to argue, but part of your post did in fact come across as an insulting smear against the pro-life movement and pro-lifers in general - essentially calling the movement entirely useless, saying the March for Life, opposing Roe v. Wade, etc. makes us "look like morons," and blaming it for murders:

 

And presumably you agree that abortion is in fact the deliberate taking of an innocent human life.  That is the definition of murder.  And the reality is that you cannot have a murder without a murderer - i.e. someone who commits that murder.  Murders don't commit themselves.

Calling abortion murder isn't crazy, overblown inflammatory rhetoric, but simply telling the truth about abortion, ugly and unpleasant and upsetting as it may be.  If abortion wasn't murder, then there wouldn't be a reason to so strongly oppose it and demand it be outlawed.  As, in sheer numbers, the abortion industry has created the largest mass-slaughter of human beings in history, it is certainly at least arguable that it is the most pressing moral issue of our time.

For the most part, pro-lifers don't run around calling women considering abortion "murderers."  This practice is frowned upon by most pro-life groups, and, while I don't think women who get abortion are all entirely innocent victims, many are deceived, pressured, or coerced by others.  But those actually running the abortion mills and killing the babies do know what they are doing, and are guilty, even if they may have justified their bloody profession to themselves or be in a state of denial.  Overwhelmingly, pro-life rhetoric focuses on the life of the child, and the evil of the act itself and the industry which perpetuates and profits from it, rather than on condemning women.

It seems to me you've largely attacked a straw-man caricature, rather than reality.

I'm afraid once again you are hearing me say one thing and getting something else out of it. I'm not using a straw man, because I wasn't referencing the mothers when I was talking about murderers -- I was talking about the abortionists. Painting signs accusing them of murder and perpetuating a holocaust is not generally an efficient rhetorical tool. I understand being passionate about the issue, but we have to put ourselves in their shoes -- if we did something we thought was right, and others accused us of being murderers, we probably wouldn't be persuaded, but further entrenched in our ideology and methods. As Saint Francis de Salles says, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. We have to approach everyone -- abortionists included, perhaps even especially included -- with compassion and understanding, while also holding firmly to our principles. We can, in all firmness and charity, get our point across without comparing people to Nazis.

The pro-life movement has done a lot of good. But it is becoming more and more extreme in its methods as time goes on. Using an aborted baby as a political prop for a candidate is simply proof of that, and the widespread support of it and venom towards anyone who objects to it proves the point all the more.

[Anomaly]

12 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Thank God. Seems like a lot of Catholic voters are ready to throw in the towel, based on the rhetoric I was hearing this election cycle.

Though as nice as Canada and most Canadians are, I don't think abortion is as protested there.  Canada has more than 2,850 abortions per million compared to USA's 2,300.   Not quite 20% more per capita.   Both are horrific numbers, and it's not meant to slam Canada, but I do think it is indicative of success the pro-life activists in the USA.   It does matter how you vote and who you support, even other than President.   The fight against abortion is not a lost cause and there are many strategies to combat it.

[Nihil Obstat]

29 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Though as nice as Canada and most Canadians are, I don't think abortion is as protested there.  Canada has more than 2,850 abortions per million compared to USA's 2,300.   Not quite 20% more per capita.   Both are horrific numbers, and it's not meant to slam Canada, but I do think it is indicative of success the pro-life activists in the USA.   It does matter how you vote and who you support, even other than President.   The fight against abortion is not a lost cause and there are many strategies to combat it.

Oh, absolutely. Which is why it is all the more important that Catholics in the US continue to fight. Especially by not voting for politicians who are dogmatically pro-abortion.

[Socrates]

22 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

I'm afraid once again you are hearing me say one thing and getting something else out of it. I'm not using a straw man, because I wasn't referencing the mothers when I was talking about murderers -- I was talking about the abortionists. Painting signs accusing them of murder and perpetuating a holocaust is not generally an efficient rhetorical tool. I understand being passionate about the issue, but we have to put ourselves in their shoes -- if we did something we thought was right, and others accused us of being murderers, we probably wouldn't be persuaded, but further entrenched in our ideology and methods. As Saint Francis de Salles says, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. We have to approach everyone -- abortionists included, perhaps even especially included -- with compassion and understanding, while also holding firmly to our principles. We can, in all firmness and charity, get our point across without comparing people to Nazis.

The pro-life movement has done a lot of good. But it is becoming more and more extreme in its methods as time goes on. Using an aborted baby as a political prop for a candidate is simply proof of that, and the widespread support of it and venom towards anyone who objects to it proves the point all the more.

I wasn't sure what you were referring to, so I wanted to make sure if we were on the same page.  If your point was just that screaming "murderer!" at women approaching an abortion mill is a bad tactic, then we'd both agree.  

However, I certainly do believe that those actually running the abortion mills and killing the babies are in fact murderers, and there's nothing wrong with calling them such.  In fact, it's good to alert the public to the reality of this evil, rather than keep quiet about it for fear an abortionist's feelings might be hurt.

These are the people who as part of their work, suction, slice and dice babies, then re-assemble the dismembered bodies to make sure nothing was left behind.  They're aware of what they're doing; their not naive innocent victims.  And if any abortionists are in fact ignorant of what they do, it's willful ignorance.  With the technology and information available, they really have no excuse.

One does not need to be a Nazi to commit murder.  (And lets not forget, the Nazis were human beings too.  Apparently, some concentration camp commanders were decent family men in their "other life," and were "only following orders.")  I'm sure many persons who commit murder have some justification for their killing, or "felt it was right."  Compassion and understanding should not lead us to disregard truth and justice.

You might try to convert a mafia hitman from his ways, but that doesn't mean we should pretend his business is not murder.

If abortion is not murder, but merely a legitimate if unpleasant medical procedure to which some people have religious objections, then for most people, there's be little point in pushing to outlaw it.

 

Also, having been in the pro-life movement since before you were born (yeah, I'm a geezer), I don't think overall it's becoming "more and more extreme in its methods."

[Anomaly]

14 hours ago, Socrates said:

If abortion is not murder, but merely a legitimate if unpleasant medical procedure to which some people have religious objections, then for most people, there's be little point in pushing to outlaw it.

Noting that a significant population of Catholics view abortion as merely an unpleasant medical procedure, a solely religious objection seems to not be working either.  Hence some of the "extreme" demonstrations. 

As KoC pointed out, out of sight, out of the offensive/horror mind. 

It is difficult to strike the proper balance to engage people to convince them of the offense they're committing, without being so offensive they shut you out.   Fr Pavone just stumbled at that.

I do think that legal recognition and protection of persons is current law and that establishing Personhood for in-womb persons is key.  The struggle is saying too bad to the mother, that her individual rights to healthcare do not trump the rights of the other person sharing her body.  The baby did not choose to be there, no more than the mother may have intended to become pregnant or the father intended to impregnate. It may have been unintentional by one, two, or all three; but there is now another person who has equal rights to life.  And the in-womb person unfortunately has the smallest voice.  

Edited November 17, 2016 by Anomaly