Priest Says Who to Vote For

[KnightofChrist]

23 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Would it be fair to say that every person has a right to a life regardless if their motor skills, cognitive ability, intelligence, or perceived contribution to society?

 

Of course as well as Equal Value and Equal Protection. Taking away one takes away the other two as well.

[Gabriela]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

It's easy for one to mistake caring for people for obsession over an issue when one doesn't care at all about those people or the issue of whether or not they are murdered in mass.

That's an easy but bogus argument. I didn't call out DS' obsession because I don't care, but because I've seen her post on hundreds of topics in this forum and others, and both her tone and personality completely change when she's talking about this one issue. She's not herself when she talks about this. She becomes totally irrational. That's why I expressed concern.

 

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

You're clearly passionate about criticizing the pro-life movement, even if you believe and state otherwise. People who don't actually care, don't actually go out of their way to say what you've said and most definitely not the way you've said it. So yeah, you passionately care about the pro-life movement, but in the form of extremely negative criticisms of it and the people in it.

You could say that, except that, when I'm not presented with talk of the pro-life movement, I never give it a second thought. I pretty much only ever hear or think about it when my father sends me one of Father Pavone's emails or someone posts about it in PM. Then I'm content to speak my mind about it, but otherwise, I have zero to do with it. If that makes me "passionate", okay.

 

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

@dUSt perhaps you will want to review Gabriela's being a CM in light of her position of not caring at all about the destruction of ten's of millions of babies lives? I think we should respect her as a person of course but this position could mislead others that read PM that it is acceptable to you and the Church. Otherwise what other fundamental Church positions can we not at all care about and yet highly and extremely criticize?

Here's what I actually said:

Quote

I am actually not the slightest bit passionate about the abortion issue. Yes, it's a terrible thing. But I devote zero attention or effort to that issue.... I just honestly do not care—again, not in the sense that I think it's a non-issue, just in the sense that it isn't my issue.

So feel free to take away my CM tag (although I seriously doubt dUSt gives a croutons about this) because I don't think that abortion is the one single most important thing you must care about above all other things if you're going to call yourself Catholic. But if you're going to do that, though, make sure you take away everyone else's CM tag for not thinking that the rights of immigrants, the fair treatment of workers, the plight of the homeless, the starvation of the hungry, the nightmare of war, and a thousand other things the Church has said are huge issues that we must do something about are each and every one of them the one single most important thing you must care about above all other things if you're going to call yourself Catholic.

"My issue" is workers' rights. That's what I devote my time too. My whole career, in fact, is driven by a passion for workers' rights. How much do you care about that, or do for that cause, you bad, bad Catholics?

This whole BS exchange is the reason I say obsessed pro-lifers have replaced God with abortion. Catholic = rabidly pro-life, nothing more. The altar is the place for aborted fetuses, not Jesus. The rest of us well-balanced folks look at this and go

...but the obsessed can't see the problem, because they're obsessed.

[KnightofChrist]

11 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

That's an easy but bogus argument. I didn't call out DS' obsession because I don't care, but because I've seen her post on hundreds of topics in this forum and others, and both her tone and personality completely change when she's talking about this one issue. She's not herself when she talks about this. She becomes totally irrational. That's why I expressed concern.

 

You could say that, except that, when I'm not presented with talk of the pro-life movement, I never give it a second thought. I pretty much only ever hear or think about it when my father sends me one of Father Pavone's emails or someone posts about it in PM. Then I'm content to speak my mind about it, but otherwise, I have zero to do with it. If that makes me "passionate", okay.

 

Here's what I actually said:

So feel free to take away my CM tag (although I seriously doubt dUSt gives a croutons about this) because I don't think that abortion is the one single most important thing you must care about above all other things if you're going to call yourself Catholic. But if you're going to do that, though, make sure you take away everyone else's CM tag for not thinking that the rights of immigrants, the fair treatment of workers, the plight of the homeless, the starvation of the hungry, the nightmare of war, and a thousand other things the Church has said are huge issues that we must do something about are each and every one of them the one single most important thing you must care about above all other things if you're going to call yourself Catholic.

"My issue" is workers' rights. That's what I devote my time too. My whole career, in fact, is driven by a passion for workers' rights. How much do you care about that, or do for that cause, you bad, bad Catholics?

This whole BS exchange is the reason I say obsessed pro-lifers have replaced God with abortion. Catholic = rabidly pro-life, nothing more. The altar is the place for aborted fetuses, not Jesus. The rest of us well-balanced folks look at this and go

...but the obsessed can't see the problem, because they're obsessed.

"I just honestly do not care" You forgot to bold that part. That's the important part, that's the part I take issue with, that's why I asked @dUSt to review your words. The mass-murder of children aka abortion aka the pro-life movement is an issue, of course it's an issue, but an issue you just honestly do not care about. I cannot help to be reminded by the parable of the Good Samaritan when I read your statements. Those that walked pass that man also just honestly did not care about that man's issue either and the way that some talked of the Samaritans in those days is how you talk about pro-lifers today.

And yes ma'am you do care passionately, it's shows very clearly in your extremely negative criticisms.

Edited November 10, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[LittleWaySoul]

34 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Belief in Equal Value naturally or rationally leads to belief in Equal Rights and that naturally or rationally leads to belief in Equal Protection under the law.

Equal Protection in context to this discussion means treating the murderer of one person the same as the murderer of another person.

Intentionality also plays a role, I would argue, as well as just how active you are in the procedure.

For example, a 15 year old girl gets pregnant and freaks out, worried that she's not ready, that people will judge her, that her parents will kick her out, and so on. She goes to Planned Parenthood, gets an early term abortion (I believe they take a pill?), the child dies, and she goes on with her life. You would have her go to jail (or suffer the death penalty) the same as if she had murdered an adult (say, shooting a classmate, for example)?

The fact of the matter is, those who have abortions and those who are pro-choice do not see abortion the way we do. Because they don't recognize the personhood of the unborn child, their intentionality is vastly different than it would be if they chose to kill an adult.

The Church herself also makes such distinctions in her teaching on mortal sin. For a sin to be mortal, it must be:

1. Grave matter.
2. Done with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense.
3. Done with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

(Thanks, Wikipedia. I never seem to remember the correct terminology for this).

In both cases mentioned above (frightened girl gets an abortion vs. girl shoots and kills a classmate), the matter itself is equally grave: a person is killed. But in one case, a person is killed in cold blood by another person who recognizes the gravity of the situation and fully consents to it, while in the other case, a frightened, pressured, and young girl has "a clump of cells" "terminated." I'm using the terminology of pro-choice advocates because it is so insidious that people truly believe it. Can you see how because of each person's respective viewpoints, the morality of the situation would be different?

~~~~~~

PS- Fun fact, according to canon law, the above-mentioned girl who gets an abortion does not actually even incur the latae sententiae excommunication stipulated in c. 1398 because she is below the age of 16 and acted out of grave fear. See canon 1323.

[KnightofChrist]

20 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

So feel free to take away my CM tag (although I seriously doubt dUSt gives a croutons about this) because I don't think that abortion is the one single most important thing you must care about above all other things if you're going to call yourself Catholic. But if you're going to do that, though, make sure you take away everyone else's CM tag for not thinking that the rights of immigrants, the fair treatment of workers, the plight of the homeless, the starvation of the hungry, the nightmare of war, and a thousand other things the Church has said are huge issues that we must do something about are each and every one of them the one single most important thing you must care about above all other things if you're going to call yourself Catholic.

"My issue" is workers' rights. That's what I devote my time too. My whole career, in fact, is driven by a passion for workers' rights. How much do you care about that, or do for that cause, you bad, bad Catholics?

I would also question in a very similar manner anyone who said "I just honestly do not care" about any one of those issues too. Because that would be seemingly unchristian to state that about those issues.

1 minute ago, LittleWaySoul said:

Intentionality also plays a role, I would argue, as well as just how active you are in the procedure.

For example, a 15 year old girl gets pregnant and freaks out, worried that she's not ready, that people will judge her, that her parents will kick her out, and so on. She goes to Planned Parenthood, gets an early term abortion (I believe they take a pill?), the child dies, and she goes on with her life. You would have her go to jail (or suffer the death penalty) the same as if she had murdered an adult (say, shooting a classmate, for example)?

The fact of the matter is, those who have abortions and those who are pro-choice do not see abortion the way we do. Because they don't recognize the personhood of the unborn child, their intentionality is vastly different than it would be if they chose to kill an adult.

The Church herself also makes such distinctions in her teaching on mortal sin. For a sin to be mortal, it must be:

1. Grave matter.
2. Done with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense.
3. Done with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

(Thanks, Wikipedia. I never seem to remember the correct terminology for this).

In both cases mentioned above (frightened girl gets an abortion vs. girl shoots and kills a classmate), the matter itself is equally grave: a person is killed. But in one case, a person is killed in cold blood by another person who recognizes the gravity of the situation and fully consents to it, while in the other case, a frightened, pressured, and young girl has "a clump of cells" "terminated." I'm using the terminology of pro-choice advocates because it is so insidious that people truly believe it. Can you see how because of each person's respective viewpoints, the morality of the situation would be different?

~~~~~~

PS- Fun fact, according to canon law, the above-mentioned girl who gets an abortion does not actually even incur the latae sententiae excommunication stipulated in c. 1398 because she is below the age of 16 and acted out of grave fear. See canon 1323.

Intention and knowledge plays a role I agree, which is why I stated earlier in the thread "When born people are murdered those that knowingly take part in that murder are punished to varying degrees." Also, even unintentional man slaughter is often punished, although to a much lesser degree of course, as it should be.

Also, murderer implies one murders someone and murder implies intent and knowledge that one is killing a person. I'm sorry for any confusion on my part.

[LittleWaySoul]

6 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Intention and knowledge plays a role I agree, which is why I stated earlier in the thread "When born people are murdered those that knowingly take part in that murder are punished to varying degrees." Also, even unintentional man slaughter is often punished, although to a much lesser degree of course, as it should be.

Fair enough. At this point, I guess I'd agree with @Peace, then, that investigating each and every woman who has ever had an abortion (or taken the morning after pill, for that matter) in order to determine a just punishment is simply, for lack of a better term, not practical. I think we'd both be surprised how common abortion is, actually. I wouldn't doubt that there are women I know and love who have either had an abortion or taken the morning after pill. It's so deeply sad; I wish I could help them all--the women and their children. I pray for my friends and for an end to abortion, especially through a cultural shift and conversion of hearts.

[Anomaly]

The above is why legal recognition of fetuses as persons is so important. They should be protected like any other incapacitated, handicapped, challenged, person.  Whether you have HIV, dementia, autism, Zika, brain damage, cerebral palsy, etc.  

[LittleWaySoul]

1 minute ago, Anomaly said:

The above is why legal recognition of fetuses as persons is so important. They should be protected like any other incapacitated, handicapped, challenged, person.  Whether you have HIV, dementia, autism, Zika, brain damage, cerebral palsy, etc.  

I agree.

(I'm out of props).

Edited November 10, 2016 by LittleWaySoul

[Nihil Obstat]

Wherever I pass by that section in the grocery store pharmacy with "family planning" products, I always make sure to accidentally knock over the Plan B pills. Apropos of nothing.

We gotta do our part.

[KnightofChrist]

24 minutes ago, LittleWaySoul said:

Fair enough. At this point, I guess I'd agree with @Peace, then, that investigating each and every woman who has ever had an abortion (or taken the morning after pill, for that matter) in order to determine a just punishment is simply, for lack of a better term, not practical. I think we'd both be surprised how common abortion is, actually. I wouldn't doubt that there are women I know and love who have either had an abortion or taken the morning after pill. It's so deeply sad; I wish I could help them all--the women and their children. I pray for my friends and for an end to abortion, especially through a cultural shift and conversion of hearts.

Well that's not really a fair representation of my position though. My position is that all forms of murder should be outlawed and all forms of murder should be punished. It's currently legal to murder babies, or to kill them anyway. And our legal system does not allow for punishing people for crimes before those crimes became legally recognized crimes. So abortion should be made illegal and depending on intent and knowledge thereafter it should be punished for those who take part in it just like any other form of murder should be.

13 minutes ago, LittleWaySoul said:

I agree.

(I'm out of props).

I propped'em on your behalf, also mine lol.

Edited November 10, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[dominicansoul]

 

[Anomaly]

37 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Well that's not really a fair representation of my position though. My position is that all forms of murder should be outlawed and all forms of murder should be punished. It's currently legal to murder babies, or to kill them anyway. And our legal system does not allow for punishing people for crimes before those crimes became legally recognized crimes. So abortion should be made illegal and depending on intent and knowledge thereafter it should be punished for those who take part in it just like any other form of murder should be.

I propped'em on your behalf, also mine lol.

Props haven't gotten me a cup of coffee or cold beer, ...yet.

Abortion can't be murder if the fetus is not a person or entity.  I think that is the significant disconnect from mind and hearts in most people,  whether Catholics, other Christians and religious, humanists, and atheists like myself.  

Unless you are psychologically defective, you aren't going to be a sociopath and will have some empathy.   It's hard to engage empathy for fingernail clippings. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Anomaly

[KnightofChrist]

19 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Props haven't gotten me a cup of coffee or cold beer, ...yet.

Abortion can't be murder if the fetus is not a person or entity.  I think that is the significant disconnect from mind and hearts in most people,  whether Catholics, other Christians and religious, humanists, and atheists like myself.  

Unless you are psychologically defective, you aren't going to be a sociopath and will have some empathy.   It's hard to engage empathy for fignail clippings. 

Agreed, but I can't help to think that many people are deceived on the personhood of babies, because they want to be deceived.

Take for example a mother who announces that she is very happily pregnant. What are the types of things most people going to say in reply to that? "Congratulations on having a baby!" "Is it a boy or girl?" "Can I feel her or him kicking?" "What are you going to call him or her?" Baby, boy, girl, him or her are all words that very clearly imply that people know babies, fetuses are in fact human beings, people, persons.

It seems that in most cases it's only when a mother does not want to have the child that a question of the humanity of the child comes up.

But sure not in all cases there are penalty of people who are actually deceived. I just don't believe it's as many as some think.

Edited November 10, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

23 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Agreed, but I can't help to think that many people are deceived on the personhood of babies, because they want to be deceived.

Take for example a mother who announces that she is very happily pregnant. What are the types of things most people going to say in reply to that? "Congratulations on having a baby!" "Is it a boy or girl?" "Can I feel her or him kicking?" "What are you going to call him or her?" Baby, boy, girl, him or her are all words that very clearly imply that people know babies, fetuses are in fact human beings, people, persons.

It seems that in most cases it's only when a mother does not want to have the child that a question of the humanity of the child comes up.

But sure not in all cases there are penalty of people who are actually deceived. I just don't believe it's as many as some think.

I do think you're mostly right. It's when the baby is a burden, is when it easy to dehumanize them.  It's easy to device yourself and others  

A bastard child, was often derided as a family shame.  Throwing the daughter out for being loose.  The potential horrific baggage of a child born of rape or incest.   We (society) alone contribute to that burden.   It one of the things that religious can get warped about.  It is not just economics. 

A clear, reasoned, rational affirmation of personhood can be supported by most everyone.   Protection from beginning to end. We don't euthanize elderly with dementia, even when we know they aren't the same person the once were.   We don't euthanize Down's syndrome children an adults.   The same logic can keep going through the logical and natural progression to conception without having to rely on biblical interpretation or perceived divine decree.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Anomaly

[LittleWaySoul]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

Agreed, but I can't help to think that many people are deceived on the personhood of babies, because they want to be deceived.

Take for example a mother who announces that she is very happily pregnant. What are the types of things most people going to say in reply to that? "Congratulations on having a baby!" "Is it a boy or girl?" "Can I feel her or him kicking?" "What are you going to call him or her?" Baby, boy, girl, him or her are all words that very clearly imply that people know babies, fetuses are in fact human beings, people, persons.

It seems that in most cases it's only when a mother does not want to have the child that a question of the humanity of the child comes up.

But sure not in all cases there are penalty of people who are actually deceived. I just don't believe it's as many as some think.

I totally agree!

Though I have noticed that some language seems to be a bit off regardless of whether or not the child is wanted. For example, when a couple discovers that they're pregnant, they often say things like, "I'm going to be a father/mother!" Technically, they already are a father/mother. This was very recently brought to my attention because some good friends of mine are expecting and I was a bit caught off-guard when the husband said something like, "Now that I'm a father..." despite the fact that his son is not yet born. I realized that I found his wording to be odd because I was so used to people speaking the other way, as if parenthood is conditioned by birth and not by conception.

I'm sure there are other examples of things like this. I think it can be a really great witness to try to speak truthfully and plainly about pregnancy. It doesn't even involve rhetoric or arguments! But when you have friends who become pregnant, say things like, "Congratulations on becoming parents!" instead of "You're going to be a parent!"