Priest Says Who to Vote For

[KnightofChrist]

And I want to apologize Gabriela to you for my actions. I was too mad in my reply to you and HCF. I had heard very similar logic for voting for Hillary from many of my Catholic friends that you used for voting for Johnson, naming that the slaughter of children isn't the only issue, or perhaps not the most important issue. I blew up on you and I shouldn't have.

However, no person Catholic or pro-life should vote for any pro-abort candidate, it does betray the Faith and the movement.

[fides' Jack]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

I believe the value of a unborn person's life is equal to the value of a born person's life. When born people are murdered those that knowingly take part in that murder are punished to varying degrees, if both have equal value murdering both should have equal punishments. You disagree, and you are wrong.

 

Hey Peeps.  It's been a while.

I saw this and liked it.  But I wanted to add that I might argue the point that the unborn person's life is greater in value than a born person's life.  That might not be accurate, but it's worth delving into (it's at least arguable).  However, the unborn person is certainly not worth less than a born person.

[Gabriela]

48 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

That's what I took from your argument against her and other pro-life persons who's actions you don't seem to care for.

You are pro-life aren't you? I know we recently had a strong disagreement on whom we can vote for and whom we cannot when it comes to pro-choice third party candidates. But yes, I thought you believed yourself to be pro-life.

Judgmental isn't at all what I was implying. Obsessed is what I was going for. In the clinical sense.

Sorry, that was a typo: I meant "pro-choice", but on reviewing your first post again, I realize I misread it.

I am actually not the slightest bit passionate about the abortion issue. Yes, it's a terrible thing. But I devote zero attention or effort to that issue. None. I have never prayed outside a clinic or even, I think, prayed about it. I went on the March for Life once because some friends wanted me to go. I'd never go again (not because I thought it was bad; I didn't). I just honestly do not care—again, not in the sense that I think it's a non-issue, just in the sense that it isn't my issue.

What I do care about is public sanity and civility. And the pro-life movement has done nothing whatsoever to help achieve that.

24 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

And I want to apologize Gabriela to you for my actions. I was too mad in my reply to you and HCF. I had heard very similar logic for voting for Hillary from many of my Catholic friends that you used for voting for Johnson, naming that the slaughter of children isn't the only issue, or perhaps not the most important issue. I blew up on you and I shouldn't have.

However, no person Catholic or pro-life should vote for any pro-abort candidate, it does betray the Faith and the movement.

I appreciate the apology. I still disagree with the second paragraph, but I'm okay with us disagreeing.  

[Anomaly]

23 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Judgmental isn't at all what I was implying. Obsessed is what I was going for. In the clinical sense.

Sorry, that was a typo: I meant "pro-choice", but on reviewing your first post again, I realize I misread it.

I am actually not the slightest bit passionate about the abortion issue. Yes, it's a terrible thing. But I devote zero attention or effort to that issue. None. I have never prayed outside a clinic or even, I think, prayed about it. I went on the March for Life once because some friends wanted me to go. I'd never go again (not because I thought it was bad; I didn't). I just honestly do not care—again, not in the sense that I think it's a non-issue, just in the sense that it isn't my issue.

What I do care about is public sanity and civility. And the pro-life movement has done nothing whatsoever to help achieve that.

I appreciate the apology. I still disagree with the second paragraph, but I'm okay with us disagreeing.  

LOL.  Most people just don't care about abortion.    

Hence Father Pavone's shock video (which was/is a mistake) and why KoC was right when he said abortion is easily ignored since the public doesn't see or smell it in the street. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Anomaly

[KnightofChrist]

35 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Judgmental isn't at all what I was implying. Obsessed is what I was going for. In the clinical sense.

It's easy for one to mistake caring for people for obsession over an issue when one doesn't care at all about those people or the issue of whether or not they are murdered in mass.

Quote

Sorry, that was a typo: I meant "pro-choice", but on reviewing your first post again, I realize I misread it.

I am actually not the slightest bit passionate about the abortion issue. Yes, it's a terrible thing. But I devote zero attention or effort to that issue. None. I have never prayed outside a clinic or even, I think, prayed about it. I went on the March for Life once because some friends wanted me to go. I'd never go again (not because I thought it was bad; I didn't). I just honestly do not care—again, not in the sense that I think it's a non-issue, just in the sense that it isn't my issue.

You're clearly passionate about criticizing the pro-life movement, even if you believe and state otherwise. People who don't actually care, don't actually go out of their way to say what you've said and most definitely not the way you've said it. So yeah, you passionately care about the pro-life movement, but in the form of extremely negative criticisms of it and the people in it.

@dUSt perhaps you will want to review Gabriela's being a CM in light of her position of not caring at all about the destruction of ten's of millions of babies lives? I think we should respect her as a person of course but this position could mislead others that read PM that it is acceptable to you and the Church. Otherwise what other fundamental Church positions can we not at all care about and yet highly and extremely criticize?

Edited November 10, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[Peace]

2 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

I believe the value of a unborn person's life is equal to the value of a born person's life. When born people are murdered those that knowingly take part in that murder are punished to varying degrees, if both have equal value murdering both should have equal punishments. You disagree, and you are wrong.

I don't tend to think of a human life as something that can be valued for the purpose of comparing one life to another. Perhaps one might say that all lives have infinite value in the sense that you use the term, but I haven't thought about that deeply. 

Let's say for the sake of argument that all human lives, born and unborn, are "equal"  in value, per your statement. Your conclusion that the penalties should be the same does not logically follow. That is why I consider your position to be irrational. 

But let me ask you. The median sentence for murder in the USA is about 25 years. Pre-meditated murder often has a life sentence, and the death penalty in certain situations. So let's say that rougly 10 million women have had an abortion in the last 10 years. You would put 10 million women behind bars for an average of 25 years each? You would lock women up for life, and/or give the death penalty to those who had adequate time to meditate and consider their actions before doing it?

You don't see any leaders or serious thinkers in the pro-life movement advocating for such things. Of course, the fact that you and few others are the only one who take your position is not evidence that you are irrational. But perhaps it may give one pause.

[Peace]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

However, no person Catholic or pro-life should vote for any pro-abort candidate, it does betray the Faith and the movement.

You have already violated that principle by voting for Donald Trump, who believes that abortion should be legal in the case of rape and incest. Trump is also pro-abortion, although less pro-abortion than Clinton.

If what you wrote above was really a principle that you believed in you would have written in a candidate like Marco Rubio, who believes that abortion should be illegal in cases of rape and incest.

What you did was make a prudential decision and voted for a pro-abortion candidate (Trump) because you believed that he was more likely to win and that therefore the chance of minimizing overall harm was greatest by voting for him.

The point is that you have not stood by any principle yourself. You have engaged in the same type of prudential decision making that others here have engaged in.

[KnightofChrist]

12 minutes ago, Peace said:

I don't tend to think of a human life as something that can be valued for the purpose of comparing one life to another. Perhaps one might say that all lives have infinite value in the sense that you use the term, but I haven't thought about that deeply.

Well when you do think and pray on it more deeply perhaps then we can have this discussion, again. Until then, I'm going to have to take a pass on it as I believe it would be fruitless for the both of us. 

Each human being, no matter what age, sex, color, creed, no creed, sexual orientation, geographical local, etc, etc, etc  are created equal, with equal rights. This is true because God has made each of us in His own image and because of the incarnation the Son of God which united Christ with every single human being giving incomparable value to every single human being.

Perhaps you should start with Evangelium Vitae? So read it, pray on it, for a couple of weeks, then perhaps we can continue the same discussion we've had many times over, then again perhaps not.

[Peace]

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

Hey Peeps.  It's been a while.

I saw this and liked it.  But I wanted to add that I might argue the point that the unborn person's life is greater in value than a born person's life.  That might not be accurate, but it's worth delving into (it's at least arguable).  However, the unborn person is certainly not worth less than a born person.

What would the rationale for that conclusion be?

A human life becomes less valuable as it becomes more developed?

Probably not, but how do how do you reach that conclusion? 

[KnightofChrist]

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

You have already violated that principle by voting for Donald Trump, who believes that abortion should be legal in the case of rape and incest. Trump is also pro-abortion, although less pro-abortion than Clinton.

If what you wrote above was really a principle that you believed in you would have written in a candidate like Marco Rubio, who believes that abortion should be illegal in cases of rape and incest.

What you did was make a prudential decision and voted for a pro-abortion candidate (Trump) because you believed that he was more likely to win and that therefore the chance of minimizing overall harm was greatest by voting for him.

The point is that you have not stood by any principle yourself. You have engaged in the same type of prudential decision making that others here have engaged in.

I am like Saint Paul, a chief of sinners. Rubio wasn't on the ballot, Johnson would have done nothing to overturn Roe V Wade, Clinton would have done what she could to increase abortions. Trump is a barbarian. Perhaps you are right and I am a hypocrite. Do you have any other faults of mine to point out?

[Peace]

13 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Well when you do think and pray on it more deeply perhaps then we can have this discussion, again. Until then, I'm going to have to take a pass on it as I believe it would be fruitless for the both of us. 

Each human being, no matter what age, sex, color, creed, no creed, sexual orientation, geographical local, etc, etc, etc  are created equal, with equal rights. This is true because God has made each of us in His own image and because of the incarnation the Son of God which united Christ with every single human being giving incomparable value to every single human being.

You mean that black people and white people have equal rights? Why Knight, the thought had never occurred to me. Thank you for explaining this deep subject matter that has somehow up until this point in my life managed to evade me. 

Now if we can get back to the matter at hand, I already conceded that your statement is true. Even assuming that your statement is correct, your conclusion does not logically follow. Among other reasons, this is because the purpose of the criminal law is not merely punitive.

[KnightofChrist]

11 minutes ago, Peace said:

What would the rationale for that conclusion be?

A human life becomes less valuable as it becomes more developed?

Probably not, but how do how do you reach that conclusion? 

 

A similar rational that would be used to punish a man less for getting into a fight with another man, than a man who gets into a fight with a handicap baby.

1 minute ago, Peace said:

You mean that black people and white people have equal rights? Why Knight, the thought had never occurred to me. Thank you for explaining this deep subject matter that has somehow up until this point in my life managed to evade me. 

Now if we can get back to the matter at hand, I already conceded that your statement is true. Even assuming that your statement is correct, your conclusion does not logically follow. Among other reasons, this is because the purpose of the criminal law is not merely punitive.

I'm not sure it has occurred to you that a 'less developed' baby still in her mother's womb has equal rights to us though.

[Peace]

10 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I am like Saint Paul, a chief of sinners. Rubio wasn't on the ballot, Johnson would have done nothing to overturn Roe V Wade, Clinton would have done what she could to increase abortions. Trump is a barbarian. Perhaps you are right and I am a hypocrite. Do you have any other faults of mine to point out?

Yes, but I will have to get back to you later about those.

5 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

A similar rational that would be used to punish a man less for getting into a fight with another man, than a man who gets into a fight with a handicap baby.

Perhaps, but we were discussing the value of life, not what an appropriate punishment should be.

5 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I'm not sure it has occurred to you that a 'less developed' baby still in her mother's womb has equal rights to us though.

A fertilized egg has the same right to life as you and I.

[KnightofChrist]

21 minutes ago, Peace said:

Yes, but I will have to get back to you later about those.

Perhaps, but we were discussing the value of life, not what an appropriate punishment should be.

A fertilized egg has the same right to life as you and I.

Belief in Equal Value naturally or rationally leads to belief in Equal Rights and that naturally or rationally leads to belief in Equal Protection under the law.

Equal Protection in context to this discussion means treating the murderer of one person the same as the murderer of another person.

Edited November 10, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

Would it be fair to say that every person has a right to a life regardless if their motor skills, cognitive ability, intelligence, or perceived contribution to society?