Priest Says Who to Vote For

[Peace]

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

Why not when Catholics sacrifice every moral standard to vote for abortion rights and help Planned Parenthood and never a thing is heard from the local bishops about it?  

Because two wrongs do not make a right. Just because others sacrifice their principles does not mean that you have to sacrifice yours.

 

[KnightofChrist]

Nihil to be honest and thank you, if I may. I think you would taken a consistent position on this issue if instead it was Pope Francis who placed an aborted child on the altar instead of Father Frank. I remember when the Holy Father placed that beach ball on the altar and how we both pretty much alone took a lot of heat for being publicly against his placing the beach ball upon the altar. If memory serves you have made pretty much the same argument against Father Frank's actions, that we made against the Holy Father's actions. It was against canon law and did not belong there. I have been contradictory, hypocritical even in my position in this thread. Perhaps my deep passion for the massive injustice done against the unborn has blinded me to any wrong doing by Father Frank. Still, I do hope he is not removed from the priesthood or punished too severely. He has overall been a far greater good for the pro-life movement than a negative force.

[Seven77]

9 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Perhaps my deep passion for the massive injustice done against the unborn has blinded me to any wrong doing by Father Frank. Still, I do hope he is not removed from the priesthood or punished too severely. He has overall been a far greater good for the pro-life movement than a negative force.

1

 I feel you. And I also hope that he's not removed from the priesthood or anything like that.  Prayers for him. 

[Gabriela]

2 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

Why not when Catholics sacrifice every moral standard to vote for abortion rights and help Planned Parenthood and never a thing is heard from the local bishops about it?

Honestly, DS, I really like you. But when it comes to abortion, you're completely irrational. This argument is absurd and it really does seem like you'd sacrifice anything for the anti-abortion agenda. You know, it's possible to really, really care about something but still keep it in perspective. It seems like abortion is an obsession for you, though. You should really examine your heart on this matter. I know that sounds pompous and self-righteous, but I had to say it. Your comments on abortion seem totally out of character for you as you're known on everything else in the phorum. I think it's a problem for you.

[Nihil Obstat]

17 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Nihil to be honest and thank you, if I may. I think you would taken a consistent position on this issue if instead it was Pope Francis who placed an aborted child on the altar instead of Father Frank. I remember when the Holy Father placed that beach ball on the altar and how we both pretty much alone took a lot of heat for being publicly against his placing the beach ball upon the altar. If memory serves you have made pretty much the same argument against Father Frank's actions, that we made against the Holy Father's actions. It was against canon law and did not belong there. I have been contradictory, hypocritical even in my position in this thread. Perhaps my deep passion for the massive injustice done against the unborn has blinded me to any wrong doing by Father Frank. Still, I do hope he is not removed from the priesthood or punished too severely. He has overall been a far greater good for the pro-life movement than a negative force.

You are a good guy. I also hope that a solution is found which is just, and beneficial for all parties. Fr. Pavone has absolutely done some excellent, important work.

Hopefully cool heads prevail. With the history between Pavone and Zurek, that may be a lot to ask...

 

[KnightofChrist]

1 minute ago, Gabriela said:

Honestly, DS, I really like you. But when it comes to abortion, you're completely irrational. This argument is absurd and it really does seem like you'd sacrifice anything for the anti-abortion agenda. You know, it's possible to really, really care about something but still keep it in perspective. It seems like abortion is an obsession for you, though. You should really examine your heart on this matter. I know that sounds pompous and self-righteous, but I had to say it. Your comments on abortion seem totally out of character for you as you're known on everything else in the phorum. I think it's a problem for you.

Can you name her specific offences of her being completely irrational on abortion? I'm curious.

[Socrates]

On 11/7/2016 at 5:28 PM, Gabriela said:

I'm not watching that. But I definitely agree with Shea that we need a new pro-life movement.

What exactly would this "new pro-life movement" be?  What would happen to the old one?

From what I've seen of Shea, he seems to want a "pro-life movement" firmly wedded to left-wing politics, and I really don't see that as an improvement.  I'm sure there would be no place for conservatives like myself in his glorious "new pro-life movement."  (Especially as for Shea and his ilk, anyone who doesn't take a hard-left stance on guns, immigration policy, or pretty much anything else, is not "authentically pro-life.")

And the reality is, as long as the pro-life movement is made up of flawed, fallen human beings, there will always be a few pro-lifers doing wrong or stupid things.  Shea needs to get off his hateful, self-righteous high horse.  It seems that Fr. Pavone may have been in the wrong here, but we should pray for him and move on, rather than wallowing in condemnation, and spewing hate against the entire pro-life movement.

Shea loves to viciously castigate Catholics who vote Republican as whores and slaves to the GOP, while at the same time he urged Catholics to vote for the fanatically pro-abortion Hillary Clinton.  The hypocrisy is astounding.

[Nihil Obstat]

Knight, that is a good point you made with regards to the beach ball. Reminded me of an important point, that the altar is not the place for political statements, praiseworthy or not. Simply not the place for it. The altar is for the Holy Sacrifice.

Make a political statement from the pulpit, sure. And during catechesis, any other time really. Get out on the street and get in people's faces sometimes. Just not on the altar.

 

[Peace]

15 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Can you name her specific offences of her being completely irrational on abortion? I'm curious.

Why don't we start with you instead, since you desire a list?

I think your prior assertion that women who abort should be given the same criminal penalty as a person who kills an adult to be completely irrational.

[Gabriela]

56 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Can you name her specific offences of her being completely irrational on abortion? I'm curious.

I'm not going to go through the whole thread (and all the other threads) picking out ways in which DS has shown herself to have what I think is an unhealthy perspective on the abortion issue. The latest one, in which she basically said, "If other people are violating canon law why can't anti-abortionists, since our cause is so much greater anyway?" is a fine example. It doesn't matter how great one's cause is. There are some things one ought never to do. Obsessive anti-abortionists have a really hard time accepting that, because for them, the end of ending abortion justifies any means. Anti-abortionism is their god.

51 minutes ago, Socrates said:

What exactly would this "new pro-life movement" be?  What would happen to the old one?

Well, not one wedded to leftist liberal politics. But I do think we can re-imagine the pro-life movement in a way that doesn't alienate people. Gruesome photos don't need to be bandied about in public where people can't avoid them; we can save them for websites where people can find them if they're interested. Sites like LifeSiteNews and other crappy "news" outlets don't need to exaggerate or blatantly lie about the findings of scientific research on abortion and/or contraception; they can accept what we do and don't know at present and make better, more credible arguments with that. Individuals can stop screaming hysterically about the issue in public and online; they can instead engage in civil, well-reasoned discourse about the issue when people agree to engage with them.

Etc.

Basically: Stop looking like the crazy abortion versions of Waco and start thinking about how you can actually change real people's minds. Get off the self-righteous kick that tells you your moral duty is to scream as loud and hysterically as possible about the outrage that is abortion and recognize that if all you do is alienate people you're neither effective nor righteous, because your moral duty is to actually engage hearts and minds—which frankly, the anti-abortion movement royally smells of elderberries at. Especially the Catholic wing of it.

[PhuturePriest]

As a good priest I know said, the pro-life movement has been shouting about abortion for forty years, and its complete incompetency is evident in the fact that it's been forty years with zero change.

And for the record, that priest is so pro-life he went to jail in Canada for praying at an abortion clinic, so please don't presume he's nonchalant about the matter.

The March for Life and shouting about taking down Roe v Wade and how literally everything in the world pales in comparison to the most pressing issue of all history has gotten us nowhere. We've made ourselves look like morons and our rhetoric has become so extreme we've inspired people to kill abortionists, because abortion is clearly much graver than killing an abortionist, right? It's time to rethink our methods. We didn't convert Rome by picketing the coliseum once per year -- we converted it by befriending those who disagreed with us and inspiring them by the genuineness of our love, belief, and actions.

The fact of the matter is the left convinces the public that we hate women, and they're able to do it because the people who buy into that narrative aren't friends with people like us who genuinely express care and love for them. If we did our job, the left could spin that story all day and people would know for a fact it was false simply by the example of their friends. As it is, the only contact they have with us is when they see us outside of abortion clinics holding up signs that accuse them of murder, and the only time they hear of us is once every election cycle when we try to elect officials decrying them of perpetuating a holocaust. That's not exactly the way you win hearts.

Edited November 10, 2016 by PhuturePriest

[LittleWaySoul]

11 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

Why not when Catholics sacrifice every moral standard to vote for abortion rights and help Planned Parenthood and never a thing is heard from the local bishops about it?  

And when pro-abort politicians publicly testify that they are Catholic but for abortion and also receive Holy Communion....where are the canonical lawyers, bishops, priests, lay people's outrage for their actions???

I'm amazed how quick Catholics are to condemn a pro-life priest, call him crazy, treat him with disdain but you better not condemn a pro-abort's lavish Catholic funeral, or you better not speak ill of a pro-abort receiving Holy Communion.

You are shifting the blame. Each action must be viewed individually, so Fr. Pavone's action in turn is wrong regardless of these other situations. You can be upset at perceived hypocrisy, but you can't use these other situations to argue that Fr. Pavone is in the right. 

I might also add that there is a huge difference between a layperson, even one in civil power, acting against Church teaching on some issue, and a priest (or even a layperson) with authority in the Church doing the same. Fr. Pavone, as a priest and as someone at the head of a large organization, represents the Church in a far greater magnitude than someone like Nancy Pelosi or Joe Schmoe on the street who supports Planned Parenthood. None of the above are following Church teaching, but the mere fact that Fr. Pavone is a priest holds him to a much higher standard canonically. Canon 276 hints at this but the fact that there are more ways in which a priest is regulated and able to be penalized should give us an understanding of how important it is that priests act in a good and holy way in accordance with the Church's laws and precepts. 

Canon 287 seems like it could apply to Fr. Pavone too, for what it's worth, but I haven't really looked into any literature on it to help interpret. 

[KnightofChrist]

13 hours ago, Peace said:

Why don't we start with you instead, since you desire a list?

I think your prior assertion that women who abort should be given the same criminal penalty as a person who kills an adult to be completely irrational.

I believe the value of a unborn person's life is equal to the value of a born person's life. When born people are murdered those that knowingly take part in that murder are punished to varying degrees, if both have equal value murdering both should have equal punishments. You disagree, and you are wrong.

 

13 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I'm not going to go through the whole thread (and all the other threads) picking out ways in which DS has shown herself to have what I think is an unhealthy perspective on the abortion issue. The latest one, in which she basically said, "If other people are violating canon law why can't anti-abortionists, since our cause is so much greater anyway?" is a fine example. It doesn't matter how great one's cause is. There are some things one ought never to do. Obsessive anti-abortionists have a really hard time accepting that, because for them, the end of ending abortion justifies any means. Anti-abortionism is their god.

Thank you for at least walking it back a little, I thought you were judging her over all, rather than just her statements in this thread. And really you don't sound too different than her with your statements, just perhaps on the other end of the passionate pro-life spectrum. For example: "Obsessive anti-abortionists" "Anti-abortionism is their god" "Gruesome photos don't need to be bandied about in public" "LifeSiteNews and other crappy "news" outlets don't need to exaggerate or blatantly lie about the findings of scientific research on abortion and/or contraception" "Stop looking like the crazy abortion versions of Waco" "Get off the self-righteous kick that tells you your moral duty is to scream as loud and hysterically as possible about the outrage that is abortion" "frankly, the anti-abortion movement royally smells of elderberries at. Especially the Catholic wing of it."

So IF DS is judgemental, you WOULD be just as guilty and as off putting and disrespectful as you accuse her and others of being. I have respect for the both of you and I don't think either of you are judgemental. I think you both passionately care about the things you care about.

Lastly I think we should ALL stop attacking each other personally, or finding personal fault with our fellow phamily members, it will just turn this thread it to a big pile of bullflop and allow the Demonic to have power over us. Let's pray for each other instead.

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[Gabriela]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

I believe the value of a unborn person's life is equal to the value of a born person's life. When born people are murdered those that knowingly take part in that murder are punished to varying degrees, if both have equal value murdering both should have equal punishments. You disagree, and you are wrong.

 

Thank you for at least walking it back a little, I thought you were judging her over all, rather than just her statements in this thread. And really you don't sound too different than her with your statements, just perhaps on the other end of the passionate pro-life spectrum. For example: "Obsessive anti-abortionists" "Anti-abortionism is their god" "Gruesome photos don't need to be bandied about in public" "LifeSiteNews and other crappy "news" outlets don't need to exaggerate or blatantly lie about the findings of scientific research on abortion and/or contraception" "Stop looking like the crazy abortion versions of Waco" "Get off the self-righteous kick that tells you your moral duty is to scream as loud and hysterically as possible about the outrage that is abortion" "frankly, the anti-abortion movement royally smells of elderberries at. Especially the Catholic wing of it."

So IF DS is judgemental, you WOULD be just as guilty and as off putting and disrespectful as you accuse her and others of being. I have respect for the both of you and I don't think either of you are judgemental. I think you both passionately care about the things you care about.

Lastly I think we should ALL stop attacking each other personally, or finding personal fault with our fellow phamily members, it will just turn this thread it to a big pile of bullflop and allow the Demonic to have power over us. Let's pray for each other instead.

 

Where did I say DS is judgmental?

And do you really think I'm pro-life?

I'm confused.

How about we move this thread to the Debate Table so I can ignore it?

[KnightofChrist]

5 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Where did I say DS is judgmental?

That's what I took from your argument against her and other pro-life persons who's actions you don't seem to care for.

5 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

And do you really think I'm pro-life?

You are pro-life aren't you? I know we recently had a strong disagreement on whom we can vote for and whom we cannot when it comes to pro-choice third party candidates. But yes, I thought you believed yourself to be pro-life.