What's the deal with US men?

[Poor Friars]

It's now over 5 years that we're in the States and the number of women interested in our community is rapidly increasing: now with 4 Americans and another 2 to be soon joining us for an experience... Whilst we still have not even one man interested... The strange thing is that we are a community that lives in total poverty and hitchhikes (something you would expect men to be more attracted to).

 

Does anyone have a possible theory to explain this phenomenon? 

[Quasar]

It seems that men mostly go into the priesthood when they are called to religious life.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Quasar

[Gabriela]

I can identify some potential problems with your online presence, if you'd like to have that conversation.

Also, @katherineHcould probably contribute to that conversation, given her research background.

[nikita92]

Its called personal safety and why risk it?! Lol

[Anselm]

Because that is part of true poverty, giving up such luxuries as the safety of private transport?

[beatitude]

10 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I can identify some potential problems with your online presence, if you'd like to have that conversation.

I'm not sure why the online style would bother men more than women, but I have to say that if I were discerning religious life, I would be put off by some aspects of the online presence as well.

Brother, when I go to the website, I'm struck by how 'busy' it is - flashing graphics, bright colours like stinging lime green, constantly shifting slideshows, tons of links and subsections. It feels overwhelming and makes it very difficult to find information. No one chooses a community based on its website (I hope!), but the website makes it easier to learn about the community, and I think that all the busyness and special effects of the site might send people running off before they've had time to gain a thorough appreciation for who you are and what you do. Sometimes 'less' is definitely 'more'.

[katherineH]

As @beatitude and @Gabriela have noted, having a clear and compelling online presence is important.  Too much information, confusing information, unorganized information, can easily turn people away.  For men and women in the early stages of discernment, simply visiting a community's website can be a significant milestone.  The content and presentation can draw them in and make them want to learn more, or it can turn them off.  That decision, to continue browsing or to close the website, happens in seconds.  Investing time and effort into a good website may seem like vanity (a person's discernment shouldn't hinge on the quality of the website!) but it's the reality of the culture we live in and first impressions are important in any situation.  

A website is also the easiest way for discerners to contact you, so contact information should be clear. This sentence on your site, "We don’t have anything, no telephone, no fax, no home ( Cf. Mt 8, 20 ), but for every eventuality, write to this address" reads like this: "we don't use any technology but in the unexpected case that we end up on a computer, you are welcome to e-mail us." This isn't an incentive for someone to initiate contact...  I realize that it may be a translation issue but it's confusing. 

I like to think of a community's online presence as an extension of their charism.  The way they present themselves online likely reflects certain dimensions of their way of life, or at least people assume that it does, so it is important that they align.  

As Gabriela mentioned, I have conducted some research on how women discerning religious life seek out information, particularly online.  If you're interested in chatting more about this feel free to message me!

 

Katherine 

[Egeria]

In addition to the website - and a simple, well-presented website does not have to cost much, if anything - when people keep telling me how radical they are I get suspicious. Religioius singing their own praises is an immediate red flag.

Also, fwiw, mixed (male and female) communities seem to almost inevitably (I can think of one notable exception) attract more women than men.

[beatitude]

4 hours ago, Egeria said:

In addition to the website - and a simple, well-presented website does not have to cost much, if anything - when people keep telling me how radical they are I get suspicious. Religioius singing their own praises is an immediate red flag.

I think that being very enthusiastic about a way of life can come across as showing off, especially if there is a linguistic or cultural difference, but it's passion rather than bragging. However, I do see your point. Last year I made a thread called 'Living poverty: a year without new possessions', as I needed to start getting to grips with how holy poverty should look in my life as a consecrated woman. I realised that I was taking refuge in my possessions during difficult times and I had to become more detached. That thread became a very personal one for me; I shared my experiences of life in the secular institute frankly and benefited from a lot of insight from PMers. Then I signed in one day and saw that PoorFriars had created a vocations promotion thread for his community with the title 'Living poverty: A LIFE without possessions!'. The way he'd used the title of my own topic almost word for word, changing 'year' for a capitalised LIFE, felt quite belittling to me, as if he were saying, "Well, a year's OK, but if you want the real deal, look at what we do!" At the time I thought it wasn't a very tactful choice of title, but I put it down to enthusiasm and zeal for the Poor Friars' own vocation rather than any disparagement of mine, and I decided not to say anything. However, if they are hoping to attract more discerners, I think they should consider how they present themselves and their way of life in relation to other forms of religious and consecrated life - people may be deterred if they get the impression the Poor Friars consider other orders as not "living the Gospel 100%". I hesitated before writing this, as it could just be my subjective perception, and I don't want to cause hurt. But if other people have noticed it too then it might be helpful to PoorFriars to hear this.

[Gabriela]

I agree with everyone above. The difference between beatitude's thread and the Poor Friars' threads is that beatitude interacts with people in her threads. She's around to have a conversation with us. She's one of us. The Poor Friars, on the other hand, shout at us in RADICAL titles that tout how EXTREME their life is and then disappear. Every thread title is shameless clickbait that I'd expect in a paid ad at the bottom of a web article, not a VS thread. And then when I click in to read the posts, they obviously exaggerate the holiness, perfection, "extremeness" and "radicalness" of the people/life, so that the whole thing comes off as totally unrealistic and inauthentic.

The pictures on the website that look like the order is trying to mimic the (stereotypical) dress of the Holy Land during the time of Jesus would probably be fine if it weren't seen in the context of all these other online communication problems. I mean, beige habits—okay, no problem. But Jesus-looking habits with all these other problems: flashing red lights and... RUN.

@Poor Friars: If you want to attract vocations, stop exaggerating everything and get real. The VS is a community, not an ad board. If you're not Americans, that's fine. Lots of us will be happy to help you learn how to talk to Americans. But a religious community talking to Americans the way cheap advertisements for mattresses and used cars talk to Americans—that's a bad strategy.

[genesisweavers]

Peace to you Brother + I have been giving some thought to your questions about American men and religious life.  One thing I have discovered about religious life.  In my experience the majority of male religious in our present day live a very comfortable life without much austerity.  In fact in my area - about 10 years ago - a local religious priest was on the television asking for donations.  His community traditionally had a monastic element.  They were in the process of demolishing their old monastery and building new accommodations for the community.  His approach was - if we don't provide this for the people interested in our life they won't join us.  In other words that had to upgrade their living conditions in order to accommodate new candidates.  

A friend of mine - who belongs to a congregation that never identified themselves as monastic told me - we used to say that when one of the brethern was transferred he should be able to fit all of his possession in a small trunk.  Now we say that all of his possessions should fit into a small U-Haul.  

Contemplative Sisters seem to have retained a good level of simplicity and focus on their environment that will enhance a life of prayer and liturgy.  But for the most part modern active religious seem (at least to me) like they are no longer religious but are now secular insititutes.  That being said they are contributing a great deal of good to our society.  

I think there has been a shift in human nature over the past fifty years (at least here in the US).  It seems to me that we now have a predominantly extroverted society.  There is almost no tolerance for silence and reflection.  We are constantly in the presence of noise.  Even the folks who are taking a long walk for exercise cannot do that without listening to what they think is music - to me it's noise.  And you can't go into any shopping center here and not have recorded noise all the time.  

For your particular congregation one thing that would not attract me is I can't picture what your life is.  Where do you live? I have gotten the impression from what I have read about you that you may not even have a shelter - I looked on your website to see if I could get an answer to that but could not find it.  Perhaps it your insistence of not having money that is giving me this idea.  And hickhiking - where do you stay while on the road? This put another negative image in my head - hygiene.  Is the extreme poverty prompting you that you don't need to bath or change your clothes? That would clearly be a deal breaker for me.  

Hope these few insights have been constructive.  They are simply the thoughts and questions of one who cares and hopes for blessings on you and your brothers and sisters.  By the way I am now 70 so I'm not looking to join any congregation.  

John

[genesisweavers]

OOPS! I forgot something important connected to the extroverted nature of modern society.  I think that this phenomenon has compromised the ability of many people in our society today to look deeper into live's realities. That is - when we loose or weaken our ability to stop, reflect, ponder, look deeper we are sure to miss the deeper underlying values of some of life's essential virtues.  Just a little example - I hear so many people saying that courtesy  and good manners - civility (notice the tone of the current election), respect for boundaries,  --- some say that social media has taken a big bite out of some of these qualities.  Not sure what the answer is but a sincere prayer attempt is always appropriate and the Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier.  May we improve as a nation and as a human family as people who believe in GOD WHO IS LOVE!

[graciandelamadrededios]

Before Vatican II, there were uniformity of observances, customs, rule and constitutions on all Orders/Congregation of Men.  Even if the order or congregation of men were found all over the world,  the variation of the way of life was very minimal.  

The tone changed after the implementation of Vatican II, where the culture and observances of the country where the religious lives is considered.  What can be construed as poverty in the USA and other western country may be been seen as such in the Third World countries.  Each provinces, are enjoined to formulate their customary and as long as such do not contravene with their current Rule and Constitution, it is acceptable to the communities.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by graciandelamadrededios

[Poor Friars]

Peace and good and thank you all for your insights!
We are greatly appreciative for the suggestions made... I guess I didn't expect it to get so personal, thinking it would be a more general question in regards to male vocations to religious life in the United States, but the suggestions about our website and the way we present ourselves has been constructive.

I guess I would like to firstly start with a public apology to Beatitude if the thread we opened about living a life of poverty apposed to living a year. We did not intend to offend you, just wanting to arouse some kind of interaction with anyone wanting to live a life as ours. Please forgive us and thank you for your gentleness and openness with us here.

As for our website, (I smile with complete agreement with you all) we too know that it's time to have it updated. Given that our community can not afford to pay someone to do it and that we are very precarious to have someone who does not intimately know our Charism work on it, we choose to only have our Consecrated Friars or Nuns build the site. We are hoping to change it soon, but given that most of our consecrated members are either busy with Studies in Rome, busy with pastoral work, or leading our respective communities though out Italy, France and here in the US -  we haven't had the time or energy to renew the website. It will be an extensive and time consuming job that we agree needs to be done soon. 

Yes, the phrase KatherineH, the phrase: "We don’t have anything, no telephone, no fax, no home ( Cf. Mt 8, 20 ), but for every eventuality, write to this address" is an old phrase we used years ago when we were living in the Sicilian Countryside without electricity, I agree, it needs to be reviewed. Again we apologize if it seems misleading.. Though we still live the same poverty (without being able to own a computer) we use simple laptop computers. As I have mentioned in other threads, our maturity of the understanding how to use these means to evangelize has grown greatly over the years.

Since the website was first published we have also grown in number and presence throughout the world. We would not put our address on the website to protect us from "sharks" who would have liked to hurt us as a new community that was still in its early stages of growth. Now we have canonical approval, priest, deacons, and a growing number of members in a growing number of diocese, I agree, that it would be best to have our locations on the website.

God bless you Gabriela. We did not at all think in any way that every title we used was "shameless" as you very harshly say, but I agree it was intended to promote Catholic vocations, and arouse discussion with vocational interests (in most cases these may be people new to Phatmas and seeking a lifestyle as ours). We ARE looking for people who are interested in a lifestyle of the Gospel such as ours. I have found Phatmas as a great blessing to share our activities precisely for the direct intention to those who are: "Contemplating religious life? It's a party for all you priest and nun wannabes!". I'm sorry that you say that we are not "one of us". Maybe this thread will help.

So, getting back to the question at hand, I was hoping that there may be more insights on Men's religious life here in the USA, why the obvious difference of the incline in Women's vocations, where there are numbers growing, what's working, where and how a community can promote themselves to the public etc.

Thank you!

Sorry if I've missed any of the questions raised and thank you all for your input.
Best wishes of Holiness!
 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Poor Friars

[beatitude]

Brother, thank you for your apology. As I said, at the time I thought you were just being a bit tactless in your enthusiasm for your own way of life - I didn't think you were trying to upset or to belittle me on purpose, so no offence was taken.  I just wanted to point out how such phrasing could be misinterpreted by discerners.

Regarding your original question, I think Quasar has made a good point - most men who are discerning religious life will look to the priesthood. I know a few Benedictine men who never had that call, but they were drawn to the silence and solitude of a monastery. I think you've mentioned in the past that some of the Poor Friars have been ordained as priests, but again, this isn't immediately apparent from the website. More male discerners might come to you if you explain how discernment works in your community: will most of the Poor Friars become priests eventually, or is it only a small number? If a man remains a friar, without receiving ordination, what will his daily life look like? What is the friar's specific place in your community, and in the Church? I think men will be more likely to contact you for more information if they know all this.