Clinton Emails: Insulting Attempt to Manipulate Catholic Church

[Peace]

46 minutes ago, Socrates said:

If the Cackling Witch is elected President and nominates SCOTUS justices and federal judges, neither the pro-life movement nor religious liberty have any future in this country.

The world ends in 2017. Socradamus has prophesied it.

[CountrySteve21]

23 hours ago, beatitude said:

There are so many different Protestant churches, each doing their own thing, that there can be no claim to a consistent Protestant theology or dogma. Some Protestant churches even deny the divinity of Christ, or say that it doesn't matter if the Resurrection is only a story. As it stands now, if someone disagrees with a tenet of a particular Protestant group they can simply move church, especially as there isn't the same sense of continuity in Protestantism as there is in Catholicism - no emphasis on the primacy of Peter, the unbroken chain right back to that upper room in Jerusalem. So it wouldn't make much sense for any politicians to try and get a Protestant church to change. They've already changed. But just shopping around for a different brand isn't an option for Catholics. Interestingly, I think the authors of these emails have underestimated the faith of the Catholic public - while it's true that many Catholics do go against the Church, many of those very same people wouldn't want the Church to change. It sounds paradoxical, but I've met more than a few Catholics like this.

I also think that the authors are confused by the Catholic political map. From what I've seen, Catholics are much more likely than, say, evangelical Protestants to take political positions that are labelled as 'progressive' when it comes to things like the death penalty, war, the question of homelessness, and so on. This is why so many of us find ourselves in a pickle when election time comes round, because there isn't anyone who truly represents us, and we can never vote with a whole heart and think, "Yes, I support this 100%." These authors seem to have been blindsided by the idea of people who agree with them on some things but disagree on other crucial things, and instead of considering that they might be wrong on those matters, the immediate assumption is that we are wrong.

This is true. I was thinking more about the typical fundamentalist you encounter in, say the Bible belt.  Though lacking a unified theology as a whole; they do have some essentials such as their opposition to gay 'marriage', abortion, etc.  It is still fascinating that she would pinpoint us Catholics, especially considering as you said, many Catholics don't practice the Faith.

 

[dominicansoul]

Liberals have already infiltrated the church.  This is why you have so many parishioners working tirelessly for the democrat party.  I know plenty of priests, too, who are trumpeters for the democrat party.  

Just watched the news and saw that San Fernando Cathedral is having a funeral for a "prominent" parishioner. She turns out to be a Democrat party minion who worked tirelessly for their platform.  Their platform is abortion at all stages, selling the baby body parts to the highest bidder, with taxpayers paying for it!  Seriously, the Catholic Church needs to clean house!  Excommunicate these murderers don't honor them with fancy funerals at cathedrals!

[Peace]

5 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

Liberals have already infiltrated the church.  This is why you have so many parishioners working tirelessly for the democrat party.  I know plenty of priests, too, who are trumpeters for the democrat party.  

Just watched the news and saw that San Fernando Cathedral is having a funeral for a "prominent" parishioner. She turns out to be a Democrat party minion who worked tirelessly for their platform.  Their platform is abortion at all stages, selling the baby body parts to the highest bidder, with taxpayers paying for it!  Seriously, the Catholic Church needs to clean house!  Excommunicate these murderers don't honor them with fancy funerals at cathedrals!

Come on now. You are talking about a deceased person. Are you not taking this a bit to far? Is it for you to say who should be excommunicated and who should receive a Catholic funeral? Would it be good to pray for the person instead of calling her a murderer and suggesting that she should have been kicked out of the Church?

You don't want your hatred of the person's actions to lead you into uncharity towards the person herself . . .

[dominicansoul]

3 hours ago, Peace said:

Come on now. You are talking about a deceased person. Are you not taking this a bit to far? Is it for you to say who should be excommunicated and who should receive a Catholic funeral? Would it be good to pray for the person instead of calling her a murderer and suggesting that she should have been kicked out of the Church?

You don't want your hatred of the person's actions to lead you into uncharity towards the person herself . . .

I don't think Catholics take it far enough.  Any Catholic who participates in the murder of the unborn really excommunicates themselves anyway, but I think its rather scandalous to pretend what she did with her time is to be celebrated with pomp and circumstance and with high ranking hierarchy celebrating.  It also further confuses the rest of the church who look up to these people and feel there is nothing wrong with aligning yourself with planned parenthood.  

[KnightofChrist]

33 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

I don't think Catholics take it far enough.  Any Catholic who participates in the murder of the unborn really excommunicates themselves anyway, but I think its rather scandalous to pretend what she did with her time is to be celebrated with pomp and circumstance and with high ranking hierarchy celebrating.  It also further confuses the rest of the church who look up to these people and feel there is nothing wrong with aligning yourself with planned parenthood.  

We don't take it seriously enough. We don't treat the lives and deaths of babies in the same way that we would treat lynching today, or slavery today, or the holocaust today, or any number of historical examples of what results when we deny personhood to some people. 

 

[Guest]

Matthew 5:45 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors ²⁸ do the same?"

[dominicansoul]

I love abortionists, but I love the unborn even more so.   

Christ gave St. Peter the power to excommunicate for a reason, and that reason is charitable.  The salvation of the soul is at stake.  This dead woman should have been excommunicated so she could come to repentance before she died.  Sadly, who knows the state of her soul?  If she worked hard for the procurement of abortion, she excommunicated herself a long time ago.  Do you all not see the tragedy in this?  And what of the others who think she was a fine Godly woman and she did nothing wrong?  Do you all not see how dangerous it is to continue to pretend abortion isn't all that important?  It's a "side issue?"  Should we not show the entire church how very offensive it is to God?  I've an entire parish of people I love and care for who are all working for the procurement of abortion.  Do you not think my heart is wounded for them?  I care for them so much!  These are my friends and they don't listen to my concerns!  I'm no one to listen to!   If the Church hierarchy doesn't do something to show them how evil and wicked it is to fight for planned parenthood, then who will they listen to???  A public excommunication would change hearts, I know it would! 

We need to quit acting like these people are heroes.  They need to be taken to task so that those they left behind don't continue in the same mortal sin. 

 

[Anomaly]

2 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

We don't take it seriously enough. We don't treat the lives and deaths of babies in the same way that we would treat lynching today, or slavery today, or the holocaust today, or any number of historical examples of what results when we deny personhood to some people. 

 

Most Catholics don't take abortion seriously. That is why Tim Kaine, yet another Catholic, gets a perfect political vote rating from Planned Parenthood and an F from the National Right to Life Committee.  Kaine supports Roe v Wade and says it is important that women have control over their "reproductive rights".  Check out the Wikipedia page  for him.  

Politicians say what they say and do what they do.   Largely, we over emphasize the negatives of our "disfavored", and can't see what is obvious of our favorites.   We have our own, varied agendas.     How abortion isn't such a major issue with Catholics in reality is pretty astonishing.  But political maneuvering and schemes are always present in organizations.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Anomaly

[Peace]

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I don't think Catholics take it far enough.  

I agree with you that we should do more.

Quote

Any Catholic who participates in the murder of the unborn really excommunicates themselves anyway,

Not exactly. Whether or not she excommunicated herself is much more complicated than that. Neither of us knows if she excommunicated herself. This article explains the complexity of that analysis.

http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/10/21/have-pro-abortion-politicians-excommunicated-themselves/

Quote

but I think its rather scandalous to pretend what she did with her time is to be celebrated with pomp and circumstance and with high ranking hierarchy celebrating.  It also further confuses the rest of the church who look up to these people and feel there is nothing wrong with aligning yourself with planned parenthood.  

Is it scandalous for a layperson to publicly chastise her priests and bishop concerning matters and decisions on which they have superior knowledge than she does?

Regardless, I doubt that the celebrant will state something along the lines of "We gather here today to celebrate Katie Smith's support of the Democratic Party's pro-abortion platform." You honor the good things about the person at his funeral, not the bad. Were that not that case none of us could have a Catholic funeral, as we are all sinners.

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

Christ gave St. Peter the power to excommunicate for a reason, and that reason is charitable.  The salvation of the soul is at stake.  This dead woman should have been excommunicated so she could come to repentance before she died.  

He sure did.  But Peter did not pass down that power to you. It was passed down to the Pope, the Magisterium, the Bishop and priests in your diocese. What exactly is it that makes you so confident that your judgement here is correct and that their judgement is wrong?

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

Sadly, who knows the state of her soul?  

Other than God, who knows the state of your soul? Do you? If you are so concerned about her soul, would not the time spent pointing out her faults and asserting that she should have been kicked out of the Church be better spent praying for her?

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

If she worked hard for the procurement of abortion, she excommunicated herself a long time ago.  Do you all not see the tragedy in this?  

 No. It had never occurred to me that someone dying in a state of mortal sin might be a tragedy.

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

And what of the others who think she was a fine Godly woman and she did nothing wrong?  Do you all not see how dangerous it is to continue to pretend abortion isn't all that important?  It's a "side issue?"  

One need not deny a person a Catholic funeral in order to demonstrate that abortion is an important issue.

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

Should we not show the entire church how very offensive it is to God?  I've an entire parish of people I love and care for who are all working for the procurement of abortion.  Do you not think my heart is wounded for them?  I care for them so much!  These are my friends and they don't listen to my concerns!  I'm no one to listen to!   If the Church hierarchy doesn't do something to show them how evil and wicked it is to fight for planned parenthood, then who will they listen to???  A public excommunication would change hearts, I know it would! 

We need to quit acting like these people are heroes.  They need to be taken to task so that those they left behind don't continue in the same mortal sin. 

Count to ten. A public excommunication may have the effect that you desire, or it may not. It may have a negative effect that you have not anticipated. It is not as though the Bishop and priests in your diocese are unfamiliar with these issues.

Does it help the unity of the Church for individual laypersons to go around trying to convince other members of the parish how faulty another person is and that they should be kicked out of the Church? If you truly believe that someone should be excommunicated, or that someone should be denied funeral rites, the proper thing to do is to take it to the pastor at your Church, and if you do not find resolution there, to your Bishop.

[Peace]

3 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

We don't take it seriously enough.

Agreed.

3 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

We don't treat the lives and deaths of babies in the same way that we would treat lynching today, or slavery today, or the holocaust today, or any number of historical examples of what results when we deny personhood to some people.

I am not so convinced of this, although it appears to be a favorite talking point of yours. We live in a society that does not value life. Not just the lives of the unborn. There are many examples. We have slavery today. It goes ignored. We have use of the death penalty in situations that the Church does not permit. It goes ignored. We take unnecessary military actions that kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. We have physician assisted suicide available in a number of states. We vote for presidential candidates who openly brag about sexually assaulting women (ahem). That is just a few off the top of my head. It is not as though our society values life and that abortion is the exception. Our society does not value life, period.

[dominicansoul]

If I'm not mistaken, my bishop was celebrating the funeral.  Everyone knows her as a prominent Democrat, i mean its all she lived for.  It's like the Kennedy's except on a smaller scale.  So, more souls will be led astray to once again believe abortion is no big deal.  After all, the local church celebrates prominent members of the party of death as if they were heroes.  

Also, Jesus gave us common sense when it comes to grave sin.  Why do we believe in anything at all if we can't point out these gross immoral and grave matters?  Let's all live in relativity and let others do the same?  I can't, I love my neighbor too much.  

I get it, its not politically correct.  Nor does it fit in our society's need for "safe spaces."  Everybody gets offended over even the slightest "judgement."   

My concern is for the souls of my fellow Catholics.  I'm a Dominican after all.  I can't help it.  I was told by my friends at my parish the same things.  "You can't judge a woman for having an abortion, you don't know her state of affairs."  "Abortion is necessary."  "Who do you think you are, God?"  How far we Catholics have fallen when we find an excuse for murder.  And not just any murder but the savage and brutal murder of a baby safely tucked away in her own mother...  I don't know, I can't help but try to convince my fellow Catholics how wrong they are to think this way.  Does that make me Jesus?  The Pope?    Mother Teresa?  The judge and jury of my parish?   Far from it.  I'm just your average, weak, nobody lay person who knows she has a mission in this life and that's to save souls, especially mine.  If I don't speak out I will be held accountable.  

Anyway, my whole point of bringing up this prominent catholic pro-abortion woman's funeral is that I don't believe the infiltration of liberals in the Church is just now beginning, but it has been a strong presence for decades.  Liberalism has greatly influenced the church already.   Has incredibly wounded the church.  Hilary doesn't even need to try too hard, the job is done.

[KnightofChrist]

56 minutes ago, Peace said:

Agreed.

I am not so convinced of this, although it appears to be a favorite talking point of yours. We live in a society that does not value life. Not just the lives of the unborn. There are many examples. We have slavery today. It goes ignored. We have use of the death penalty in situations that the Church does not permit. It goes ignored. We take unnecessary military actions that kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. We have physician assisted suicide available in a number of states. We vote for presidential candidates who openly brag about sexually assaulting women (ahem). That is just a few off the top of my head. It is not as though our society values life and that abortion is the exception. Our society does not value life, period.

It's something that I believe is the truth and a powerful truth. How we treat the lives and deaths of babies does differ. 

Today an individual who spent their lives advocating in favor of lynching, slavery, the holocaust, or sexual assault and rape would not be given the same praise. They would not be shown the same honors, or the same respect. I don't think you can or should object to that fact at least.

Having seen how passionately you've spoken out against Trump's words and actions, I can't believe you'd really take issue with what DS said if she was speaking about someone that advocated sexual assault against women.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Peace said:

Agreed.

I am not so convinced of this, although it appears to be a favorite talking point of yours. We live in a society that does not value life. Not just the lives of the unborn. There are many examples. We have slavery today. It goes ignored. We have use of the death penalty in situations that the Church does not permit. It goes ignored. We take unnecessary military actions that kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. We have physician assisted suicide available in a number of states. We vote for presidential candidates who openly brag about sexually assaulting women (ahem). That is just a few off the top of my head. It is not as though our society values life and that abortion is the exception. Our society does not value life, period.

It's something that I believe is the truth and a powerful truth. How we treat the lives and deaths of babies does differ. 

Today an individual who spent their lives advocating in favor of lynching, slavery, the holocaust, or sexual assault and rape would not be given the same praise. They would not be shown the same honors, or the same respect. I don't think you can or should object to that fact at least.

Having seen how passionately you've spoken out against Trump's words and actions, I can't believe you'd really take issue with what DS said if she was speaking about someone that advocated sexual assault against women.

 

 

[Peace]

15 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

It's something that I believe is the truth and a powerful truth. How we treat the lives and deaths of babies does differ. 

Today an individual who spent their lives advocating in favor of lynching, slavery, the holocaust, or sexual assault and rape would not be given the same praise. They would not be shown the same honors, or the same respect. I don't think you can or should object to that fact at least.

Agreed.

Quote

Having seen how passionately you've spoken out against Trump's words and actions, I can't believe you'd really take issue with what DS said if she was speaking about someone that advocated sexual assault against women.

If Trump (or someone else who similarly advocated sexual assault) was Catholic, died, and she said that he should be denied a Catholic funeral because of his prior statements or actions, in the case where the bishop arleady allowed for a funeral, I would take issue with it as well. I do not think it is our place to say.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Peace

[Papist]

This is appalling. I love middle ages dictatorship.